Anthropic's Fiona Fung on AI-Driven Engineering Transformation

Transcript

Anthropic engineers on average of eight times as much code per quarter as they did compared to 2025. Coding is no longer the bottleneck. It's lifted the ceiling of what anyone that is able to do. Everything is now possible in theory, counts about how ambitious can you be. It's always something we ask ourselves what's better than me doing it. I have a lot to do. The people that seem to be doing best are taking the most initiative, getting the most proactive, have the most agency. We've said with high agency is also high accountability. So it's all about making sure folks have that freedom to cook. But then it's also like, okay, what's the accountability for it? What's a high hypothesis of what you're trying to solve? I'm curious what is lost in this new world of software engineering. I could start being a lonely experience because we all started just working with our agent so much in on the cloud code team recently. We started a pairwise programming lunch. Something you think about is the scaffold forming between people that are leading into AI, killing it, and then people that are not super frustrated, fighting, resisting. In terms of frustration, I think sometimes I also see a little bit of fear. For anything that there is a fear, my advice is leaning and asked, what can I do about it? What is within my control? Today, my guest is Fiona Fung. Fiona leads the teams behind cloud code and co-work at Anthropic. She oversees both Boris, churny, and cat Wu, both of whom who have been on the podcast and whose episodes are in the top 10 most listen to episodes of all time. Before Anthropic, at Microsoft, Fiona ran the teams that built TypeScript and Visual Studio. After that, she went to Facebook where she started the Facebook Marketplace team, which she took from idea to launch. Today, Facebook Marketplace generates over $100 billion in GMV every year. Also, while at Meta, she oversaw work on Meta's first smart glasses product and then she helped build Orion their first AR glasses product. Then she went to Instagram where she lit infrastructure growth, integrity, and safety teams. While at Instagram and in Meta, she oversaw an org of over 500 people. Fiona has been an engineer for over 25 years and as a long time engineering leader, especially now at Anthropic. She has such unique lens into where things are heading, what's worth being attention to, and what teams should be thinking about right now as AI transforms the world of building. A huge thank you to Cat Wu, Boris, Terny, and Mohamed, Hegazi for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Lenny's product past.com for a free year of the hottest and most well-crafted AI products in the world available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Fiona Fung. Fiona, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me, Lenny. So I was at the code with Claude event. I don't know, a month ago at this point, and I went to your talk, and I was just like, holy shit, I got to get the one on this podcast. She's thinking so far ahead of where everybody else is going and where people are at where they are. So you've been an engineer for 25 years. I was browsing your LinkedIn. You started at IBM of all places. It's such a different place to be these days. And it's just insane how much the job of an engineer has changed or the past just like two years. It's like a completely different job. People may forget 100% of code was written by humans, not long ago. And now it's getting to 100% of code written by AI as Boris famously said code and coding itself. Along these lines, there's just this tweet that you guys put out yesterday where you showed, here's the tweet, anthropic engineers on average of eight times as much code per quarter as they did compare it to 20, want to 20, 25. We'll show this chart on the screen. It's just like stable stable stable stable stable pull, shooting off into the moon. So it's just insane how much this role has changed. I'm curious about your kind of path as an engineer going living through this, having been an engineer for a long time. What have been kind of like the big moments along the way where it's shifted your way of thinking and operating that have led you to which you do now and how you operate now? Oh, I love this kind of local walk back in time. Yeah, like IBM working on DB2, the operating system services team, like back then I was thinking, oh, how can I, how can I be like the like what's a hard area of the stack? And I really thought the lower level you go closer to the OS, then it's more hardcore and you learn more. So that was I was really fortunate to go into the IBM internship. But the funny thing was I would, I think there's even a big shift from IBM to Microsoft. So at IBM it was I think them, like I didn't have an IDE, thought we used, I think there might have been an eclipse license, but for some reasons most of us didn't use this. I remember it was mainly like them and you know, like kind of terminal debugging and then when I joined Microsoft, I mean, this is how naive I was. I didn't even know about IDEs and such and and back then you didn't really get to pick teams like this was early 2000s. Actually, first off, I should say, I was so grateful that I landed the internship on the role because to take us all the way back in time, the dot com bubble burst in 2000. And so from I graduated in class, like a lot of the companies weren't hiring or more hungry, so I was so fortunate when Microsoft extended me an offer. And so that like you're going to work on Visual Studio, I did not even know what Visual Studio was because I came from like a UNIX school time, I remember asking, oh, because I was thinking, well, the name Visual Studio, I'm like, oh, is this like a better paint program? And I could tell the look of my Maddie's face, like, what is but then it ended up becoming like the love of my life for the first, you know, 11 years of my career. But that was the first time I used an IDE. So joining the Visual Studio team, seeing, oh, wow, like here's an IDE with like debuggers and you can separate points and do multi-threaded debugging, like that was also always mind blowing for me to think about the stepwise change. So yeah, like that was kind of the story going from Ibram to Visual Studio. And then what I really loved actually about Visual Studio is I was on the Visual Studio editor team. So I use the yes editor to build the VS editor. And that's where my whole love of dog feeding comes from. Like, I remember that I wanted to first and foremost create a telephoto experience, not only for myself, but for my teammates. Because also if we go back in that time, if you remember, I mean, when did Twitter come out? Like, was it to 2006? It feels like it's been around my whole life. But back then, like before social media, it was also harder for most engineers to hear fast customer feedback. Like, for sure, there you would be user research sessions, or we would have customers visit us. But you didn't get the rapid feedback that you do nowadays. But back then, I was so lucky, because I was on VS. We are self-cating each other so much rapid feedback, because we were all heavy VS users on the team. This episode is brought to you by our seasons presenting sponsor Work OS. 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Work OS allows you to build faster with the life of APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to WorkOS.com to make your app enterprise ready today. People think about these milestones along the way of an engineer's journey and we forget that there's also, there's been like a lot of transformation over the years. Not quite what we're living through, but just like IDEs, Visual Studio. So I love this. I love your mining us of these moments in the history of software engineering that have changed the work in a big way. Yeah, when I worked on Visual Studio, back then we also shipped software on CD's. I mean, like, and that's why there were really hard deadlines because you had to make sure the software was ready for us to give to manufacturing to then put on the CDs for us to then put on the shelves. And so once that was another shift, when we actually started to be able to you know, ship software online. And I think that's the interesting thing. And I kind of mentioned this in my talk. It's before when you like engineering time was like really precious resource. But you also have these really hard deadlines, for example, like printing software CDs. And so back then, you would do a lot more planning because you just wanted to make sure given the time you have, you make the best of it. And that's the shift that, you know, like we're seeing with with a clock code and co-work is coding is no longer the bottleneck. And so that like, you know, you showed up, you showed the tweet on that graphic. But now it's all about like, where has that shift happen? Like now not only engineers with we also have designers, PMs, everybody on the clock routine checks and code. So like when not only more people checking in code, but like kind of different disciplines, but also the throughput is so high. How do we think about verification? Like that's kind of this other shift that I'm seeing. Maybe just kind of set this theme that I want to have for this conversation. A lot of people are just wondering what is what is software engineering managing software engineers managing software and product teams look like in the future. And you are living through that right now. So you mentioned this point about a more focused on verification, making sure the quality of the code being 8x is actually high and something that, you know, will work. So just like let me ask this broad question. Let's kind of see what this conversation goes. What is a, what is an AI-pilled software team look like in 2026? Because the roles are blowing, it's shifting more to this builder. Like everybody starts being a builder I would say. The other shift that I've recently done is I actually have a quadcode remote session that I'm list in all of our repos. And so this way I have full visibility into the work that everybody's doing. And this instance, it also has access to all our Slack channels and all have access to like how or the metrics of everything we track. And so every month like I went when like I like hey, you know what's fun? Let's take a look back. And so we'll actually do it together. I'll share my, you know, like co-code, you know, I've shown my screen. Then we we do a co-code session. And it's just about hey, what were the focus areas? Like what were some of the the products that got shipped? How did it do? Oh, what were the feedback channels? And and so I even though like before I would have just used these sessions to like generate PRs and bug fixes, I actually have these sessions to enable me to have conversations with folks that I support. Same more about that. So this is this is like a management technique. Let's say to help people not just ship, but actually ship better understand if they're shipping things that have impact is that kind of the idea here just like you use claw to keep on top of all the things people are shipping and then make that a conversation with them. Exactly. So like, yeah, outside of just, you know, the action of shipping is how did it do in market? Or hey, did we have, you know, like, did we call some bugs? And it's okay to, like, I have to say make new mistakes. Like it's okay to make mistakes, just make new and so that we're always learning. Because if you aim to make zero mistakes, like that calling means you're not, you know, moving fast enough for being a little bit too cautious. And so yeah, by having clawed, like, so then it can also look at like some, like, for example, actually, yeah, we were, I was just looking at, oh, you know, given some of the, you know, incidents that we have, like, let's look across all of this. Can we generate a theme? Like, what's a good error investment for us, not so special. We think about, like, quality, like, are we seeing any hotspots of where there could be a gap? I think that used to be just a much more manual process. I would say, like, if I look back a year ago, I don't think I would have been able to, you know, have some of these insights with clawed. Yeah. Well, partly is because, like, there's that and also people weren't shipping as much so you could just make a little bullet list. Here's the things I ship last quarter. This feature, that feature, this feature, that feature. That's right. What I'm hearing here is this is like one of the only ways to stand top of all the things that teammate shipping. So this is a really cool thread of just like how you found ways to stand top of this ADX increase in code. What also is worked in helping you and your team stand top of and maintain quality of all the stuff that you're shipping because that's obviously a challenge or bigger challenge. Yeah. And so definitely, like, the feedback channels are really important to us, but then we also get a lot of feedback and, like, for example, even I myself usually, my morning ritual would be, you know, I get my morning cup of coffee and then I look at the feedback channels and then I try to pick a what are, you know, if I have some maker time, what's something that maybe I would be able to help out or what I could like see some gaps like that. It should see something I would do every morning and I think maybe a month or two ago we launched routines. And that's also completely changed. Like now I just have a routine that automates all this for me and then there's also it's almost like before I would, you know, be able to kind of like, you know, generate some prompts, but now with routines, it's almost like I'm, you know, having an ancient help majority, like generate the prompt to end the PR. So for example, one is, hey, keep a look on this feedback channel, you know, what are some of the themes and then, like, when I wake up, then, you know, I have a really good summary of that and then even some like PRs that I'll be able to take a look and review. And the feedback channel, where's that feedback coming from? Is that like, like emails, Twitter or to combo everything? Uh, your feedback channels are definitely like we have a lot from internal ads, but also like emails, channels, actually everybody, like when we all get feedback on even like one friend's ping us or a LinkedIn or socials, well, all actually like post all of that in Slack as well. And so and we also have like, of course, partnerships. And so we have different channels for for all the various sources, but but that's what I mean, I need caught help to help me stay on top because there is so much incoming feedback. Got it. Okay. So this is cool. So this is a like a way of working that you've built to stay on top of all the stuff shipping, which is this kind of daily ritual slash routine where you, as a manager, look at what people are saying about the current state of cloud code and co-work and used to just like, okay, someone go fix this, go fix that out. It's like, here's the PR that'll fix this thing. Check it out. We're ready to shift you on. Awesome. Okay. Like obviously a big challenge for people is also just code review. I imagine cloud is also doing a lot of its own code review. Is there anything there? You've recently figured out that allows your teams to ship faster stuff that they are confident is great. Yeah. And honestly, it's crazy when you think we didn't even have cloud code reviews last year. And so speak at bottlenecks that that was a really, really big bottleneck of, you know, the human reviewers. So we definitely for the important, like, like areas that need deep subject matter expertise. We definitely want to make sure we have the proper, you know, like human still reviewing. I would say what helps us that was the more that we can automate to almost check in the framework for what good looks like. Cloud is very good when you give it a framework to validate against those frameworks. So I had mentioned like, you know, like, recently we just updated the content design to have a skill in it. Like my, like, I, and this is why like, um, I think if you have specs or like, or like, like, check those into the repo and then make sure the spec also keeps up to date with the code like frequently. But that's what I found like works really well of any time you have like a statement of what good looks like, get the end of the to the repo and then cloud code review can make sure it's still matching what you set up to do. Basically, it's like the evolution of test driven development. Yes, for TDD, it's, because I remember that was like a big thing. My gosh, maybe like into 2000s of, right, the test first and then, and then you can like make sure the test fails, then you do actually the code in principle is really good. But I think, I know I remember that I myself struggling a bit because it was almost like you have to eat the broccoli first because I was like, oh, you have to write this test first and I just get so much thrill out of shipping and building product. So it's funny. Actually, the first bug effects on cloud code. I remember asking, Cloud, hey, I want to do test driven development. Help me write the test first, make sure it's fails. And then we'll actually do the fix and then now that has passed. And the fact that that used to be, you know, like that test generation used to just be this tax that I remember having to pay, like the fact that that's not automated and you can even revisit all these principles that have been around for a while. But now they actually might be even more efficient just because you have the models that can do more of the work for you. Yeah, like that's so unfair. It's just right to test for you first. So on this point of builders, one of my favorite slides of your talk that I'm going to ask about is who you are hiring and what you look for in people. And so I'll read what you said there and I want to hear more here. So the two profiles that you now look for when you're hiring are creative builders with product sense and deep systems experts for the hard parts. Yeah, the deep subject matter expertise. Like for example, when I first started on cloud code, we had really great kind of like product generalists. And then I realized, oh, we were missing folks with systems background. And so that was definitely an area that we needed more folks with kind of like systems and distribution systems expertise. And so I would say whatever are the parts that it's all about trust but verify. The models are really good, but they're definitely a lot of areas that still need, you know, the verification. And so wherever you need the deep subject matter expertise, I would say that's, you know, an area to definitely still in Boston. And the other one is kind of like the product, the products, the products, looks almost like the dreamers. Like these are folks that usually will be like my gosh, a really passionate about a product and they have an idea, they build it and then is always like looking at the feedback and then iterating and polishing and making sure that the product is a delightful experience. Like owning that product into ends, that's, that's like another skills that that surf just really well on Clark County. The super resonates. There's this word ambition and they don't know if he used it, but that's what I thought of as you're talking. That's been coming up a bunch recently in the podcast and in other work I've been doing. There's this 10xCNG nearest talking to the other day and he was just like, I used to like, I heard about a feature idea. Like someone's like, hey, we should build this and I was like, no, that's really hard and complicated. And he's like, but now I'm like, no, that's so possible. I just ask Claude Coat to do it. And it just does it. And it's his whole mindset shift. And he's just realizing now it's about how ambitious can he be? Like, everything is now possible in theory. Now it's about how ambitious and how big can you think versus just like, okay, it's all these stupid little features and things that have done block. Does that resonate? Is that something that you think about? Yes, actually, I was just catching up with an engineer yesterday and he actually is not a mobile engineer by trade, but we really need it to update this feature to also have a mobile footprint. And it was just amazing like he's like, you know what? Because it and it's common because you might think, wait, but I don't, I'm not like an Android expert. But now thanks to Claude. Actually, I can actually have a partner and actually also do this on the mobile surfaces. And so that definitely resonates. It's like that it's lifted the ceiling of what and anyone that is able to do. So let me follow that thread as the role has transformed in such a crazy way. Some people are thriving. Some people super frustrated, unhappy, fighting, resisting. What do you see common across the people that are doing really well? The engineers that have adapted and are thriving versus the engineers and, you know, even outside engineering that are just like frustrated and having a bad time? I would say a growth mindset really really helps. Like actually even before AI tooling, I found that has been just so valuable. And I learned that a lot. Actually, it was the shift from Microsoft to meta. That was where I first wrote that first year. I'm like, oh, this is what having a growth mindset really means. It's really this concept of always be learning. And also what's served you to get you to this point may not serve you no longer. But it's really hard because, of course, everybody, like we all, you know, we've all gotten to the state by acting or, you know, like operating in a certain way. And so sometimes it is a little bit scary to think, wait, you're asked, like, but I've been successful so far. You're asking me to change what has made me successful. And so I would say like the growth mindset is really really has really served me well. And I think it's also served others well. That I notice like always leaning in with curiosity and always being able to learn. And then in terms of like the frustration, I think sometimes I also see a little bit of fear. And so my advice there is, at least this is how just in life, because we all have, I'm fear is, of course, an evolutionary, like, I did study anthropology, but I think it, you know, it makes sense, right? It helps us make sure we were able to survive and not get eaten, you know, by larger predators. But for anything that, you know, that there is a fear. My advice is, kind of leaning and ask, okay, is there some, what can I do about it? What is within my control? Because sometimes the frustration comes from fear and feeling like, but everything is outside of my control. And so it's happening to me. And so if you think about, okay, what is in your control? It ends up happening to you. Is it happening for you? And then what's, what's something that you might be able to kind of like do and change like, I felt that's been helpful. Because if not, it, it, it is super frustrating to have the fear and then feeling like everything's outside of your control. Like I actually remembered when I was in, actually, when I was in high, it's funny when we were going back to IBM. When I was in high school, I actually didn't go into computer science or engineering. Like, I really want to be a visual artist. And this is how far back we go back, then computers were really expensive. Actually, didn't even have access to a computer. My first computer was access to computer was great nine, I think, in high school. I don't even know this happens in high school anymore. My high school had a typing class where you had to class just to learn how to type on a keyboard and learn to be really proficient. And that was my first time. And then the next class was maybe like some HTML programming. So anyways, but the reason why I found love with it was while what I love about art is creating. And being it, if you have an idea, you can go ahead and create and tell a story. And then I realized, oh, computers and programming, that's, that enables me to do that. So anyways, I try to really fast try to make up for all the, you know, science classes for me to get to university. But I had this fear of, oh, but how will I afford to get into an engineering school? And it was this big unknown. I grew up in Ontario. So I was very grateful. I knew there was an Ontario, you know, school assistance program. I owe staff. I think it's coverage. I'm very grateful for it. But I didn't know how much of that would cover my tuition or, like, expenses. And it was just a unknown. And it would be like a year, a year out. And I remember thinking, okay, what can I, what can I do about it? And then as, as look what have it, the National Bank of Canada just posted this fly in our high school saying, hey, we're hiring high school interns to be a bank teller. And I remember, oh, that, like, I, and of course, it was going to be a minimum wage. But I, I, I, I thought that that could be a lifeline. But it was funny, because the class I hated the most in high school was accounting. So I don't know if it would be any good at it at all. But I signed up to be a bank teller. And that ended up being such a great decision, because I worked all summer, saved up. And then actually, I was able to work as a bank teller on the weekends. So like, yeah, well, I went to, I, we go to school Monday to Friday. And then, I'm sorry to be a bank teller. And that ended up being this lifeline that enabled me to, you know, like pay for all my school expenses. And, you know, we talked about the year 2000.com crash. Then when folks weren't high as much interns, actually, I continued being a bank teller for, for two, two years. And so, but, but like that was the one action. I thought I could take that was of the my control to try to counter this fear I have. If I'm really going to go down this path, I don't even know if I could have effort to go to school. So that's probably my other advice of like growth mindset and the source of, you know, frustration or anxiety. If it's coming from, you know, the, like, see, is there some, is there one action that's within your control that you can take, to, you know, it, so it, like, because I think there's, and, you know, that was a saying, like, do somethings, what would you do if you're not afraid, actually? Those were my two favorite things before, like, what would you do if you're not afraid and do something scary once in a while? Because that's also usually how we grow. I found that when you're, when you're really good on profession, what you do, you're kind of a peak, you know, like maximum efficiency. But then, how do you keep growing is you then do something scary that you might not have done before. And, yeah, you will have a debt because you need to learn, but that's kind of how you keep pushing yourself toward. The quote that I have probably used the most on this podcast of all the quotes is the cave you fear contains the treasure you seek. Oh, I love that. Yeah, and it's so true, just like, like, I forget who put this, but just the thing that is scariest is like, that's a compass towards that's what you should be doing. Mm. I'm going to steal your quote. Yeah, they please do. Like, you know, there's like, don't do all the scary things. Like, maybe don't drip off a clip, but maybe in the career, in career moves, it's probably a good choice. So kind of following this path, something that I know that is important to you, something you think about that I also think about is this kind of gap that is forming between people that are just like leaning into AI, killing it, doing super well, and then people that are just like not. And this is like a scary time for people that may be left behind in this new world that is emerging. I know you spend a lot of time with small businesses that's a big passion of yours to help people learn how to use AI and their work. Talk about just like how you think about that and what maybe we should be thinking about to help folks, you know, stay not not fall behind, basically. Oh, I, I love this. Yeah, it's one of my passion topics because kind of mentioned, you know, like growing up in Canada. And I, I moved there when I was a kid. I was born in Hong Kong. So I didn't speak any English. And my parents had to work all the time. So my grandma, who is the best grandmother and anyone could have ever asked for. I know everybody thinks her grandma's the best, but I really was so lucky. I had the best grandma. She moved with us just to take care of me. One of my parents were working. But neither of us spoke English, but I was able to learn how to speak English by, you know, go into school and speak with classmates. And when I think about my grandma, I was very alienating for her to be, you know, in that country where, and, you know, back then, it was an as walkable. But one summer, I remember we just happened to find this little yarn shop that was owned by lady that also spoke Kent needs. And so that became every week we would go to this yarn shop, the summer of my grandma found her knitting circle. And then I think I learned how to do like macromé, which I think is having a comeback, by the way, it's always funny to see what macromé coming back. Macromé, I think, yeah, I heard it here first on Denise podcast. I think macromé is coming back. But that was probably where my love came from. I'm like, oh, well, this little small business created this wonderful sense of community. And I've been really fortunate to, you know, become friends with all of the small businesses that I love. So that's kind of like where the passion comes from. And then what how it happened was I was using co-work for my own business expensing travel. I don't know, it is I really don't like doing business expensing. And when I was using co-work, it was magic. I'm like, oh, all these things that I don't like to do. Like, co-work is doing for me. And I'm like, be in a minute, all my friends. And honestly, small business owners, they really bust their butt. Like, they work incredibly hard. And they're, you know, like, sometimes might be operating on really small margins. And so I thought, if it's, if clawed co-work is so good at helping me do my little, you know, business travel expense, this would be huge for it. Because I see my friends sometimes sitting at the bar with stacks of bills. And all they're doing is invoicing and expensing. And I think nobody actually really likes to do it. So that's kind of where it came from. And then until, yeah, I remembered helping a couple of them on board. And it was also very humbling to see them go through our onboarding flow. Actually, it found some really good bugs. So it was really like a win-win. But it was also delightful for me, because they also use co-work in ways that I, I went to Thoughtabuck. Because I was all fixed. They don't look at how it is amazing with PDFs and invoice. And then, you know, one of my friends who who runs tourist runs, she's like, oh my gosh, this folder I have, it's like a drunk drawer of, like, it's basically our, you know, documents folder. It just becomes a structure of every or downloads. Like just, you know, like the kitchen junk drawer. And she's like, I know I have a few menus in here. And I can't find it. And I'm like, well, let's ask co-work. So it gave co-work access to directory found the menus. And then she's in a really unique way. She goes, like, I want to make sure I keep my prices reasonable for locals and tourists. So she goes, hey, call, I'd look across my style of cuisine in this area is a comparable. And it came back with really cool, almost like market analysis. And she goes, hey, I actually just went to the restaurants, the island. That was pretty good. So I learned something every time. And yeah, they've been, like, give me great feedback as well. So the question then is just like, how do we, how do we spread this to everybody? Because as you, you know, there's like, like, a lot of people are just like, I don't have time for this or a hey, yeah. And it's just like, I want to ignore it. Is it like talking? Is it just talking about these sharing examples? What do you think? How it, what's like a way to make a dent in this, in this problem? For all of us, especially to your listeners are probably very AI-pilled. If there's anyone either in their community or their family, that that has like, I would start with what has something that really you felt has, that you really have felt has made a meaningful life change for you with with the AI tools. And then seeing it that as a conversation starter, because for me, AI is a tool. Again, it's the whole light in the dark. I totally understand the frustrating part as well. But for me, I'm also about like knowledge is power. Like have to learn how to use the tools because it could actually, you know, be the light part of that light and dark equation. So I think that that's something that I would love to everybody's help with. If there is whether it's a community member or even if there's a business you're really lacking, okay, have you ever, it's, it's a little awkward to start. Like I remember when I first reach out to my friends, I'm like, because I don't talk about what I do with them a lot, but now my hey, kind of, you know, working AI, can I, can I, it's not, it's even unnatural for me to do, because I'm, you know, laying on the AI, can I show you what, you know, co-workers possible and, and then, but it ended up, we ended up having a lot of fun. So yeah, I would love for like the conversation starter would be great. Yeah, because I just want to make sure we keep sharing the knowledge and, you know, making the tool equitable, because if not, I'm concerned that the tovike rails larger and larger. Me too. I find that sharing use cases, as you said, is such so powerful. I was just using co-worker other day to fill out my, my son's camp forms and just sharing that. I'm Twitter, just like a lot of people are like, oh, wow, I didn't think about that. It's just like these little things you don't think about that co-worker can do. Pinnable on this line, speaking of co-worker, if you think about it, and Thropic has been super early on uncovering these really big opportunities ahead of everyone else. For example, coding, so far ahead, like realizing, this is a huge market. Whether it's intentional or not, it's just like, wow, that's maybe the biggest new business opportunity in the history. And then co-worker is a great example, just leaning into knowledge work. Let's just just make, let's just solve all the knowledge work, why not? So far ahead of everyone else. Another element is it feels like a focus on the personality of the model, something you all were very early on, just how important that is, not just for the experience, but just also the intelligence and success of the model. What is it that you think in Thropic and the teams do differently that allows you to uncover these opportunities, and then just go big on them before other labs, let's say? Well, I haven't worked in any other labs, so I'm not sure how the labs operate, but I will share, like, yeah, with, um, and like, actually, on the cloud code team as well, and co-worker, like, we also keep an on, like, latent demand. Now, we're very fortunate with coding as a use case, because so many ants that we were, you know, like, our own first customers, and we're able to do, like, really rapid feedback. And, and so I think, um, but latent demand has, has been, like, a, like, for example, a co-worker we know to say a lot of folks that were not national stakeholders were, we're using cloud code, can we make that experience better? Um, I think that's actually even outside of Anthropic, that's certainly well, and in all the different products I've worked on. Um, but, uh, and, and actually it's funny, you mentioned, like, you know, the, the, the cloud for, uh, you know, my passion was small business after I, you know, had, had a few of this business. We ended up now launching cloud for small business, which is really cool, because I, and, and, and totally didn't come for me, so I'm not taking credit, but I noticed it too of, like, when I was working with, and that, because I was asking me, oh, I'll develop this plugin at this plugin, like, I think it does, and then we have to, you know, go and search for it. So, actually, now, cloud was small business bundles that I'll love, so inside co-worker, you just have this little toggle, and there were, there were, there were, there was a wonderful team that's been kind of, like, uh, you know, doing, uh, co-worker sessions with small businesses that probably found, hey, we could have, like, an efficiency gain here. Um, well, like, make the experience better. And so, I would, I would say, like, always, uh, not only for products that you're on, like, making sure you're always, you're not listening to feedback and always iterating, trying to make a delightful, reliable, high quality experience, and then also keeping an eye out for, oh, what are these other use cases that, that are popping up, and can we also make that experience better? It's, it's interesting, like, after, like, you know, in suffer, I've learned that customers will use your product in ways that you did not intend for good or for bad. And so the, the best way, um, is really like, it's all about the iteration, learn, and, um, keep close to the feedback. Wait, in demand, that's a, that terms come up with lunch on this podcast. There might be some that. So essentially, just watching closely for behavior that you may not have expected or that it's just kind of emerging, and then just going big on that, essentially, exploring it, building something awesome. Yeah. And having a hypothesis for, hey, like, because actually, when you see people jumping through hoops to make something work, can you actually make that an even, like, a smoother and, and better experience? Coming back to the way that your team's operate, you guys are so at the edge of what's possible. And the role of just engineering has changed so much. I'm curious what you think is the next kind of frontier of how engineering, in particular, is going to change. Is it like, and a fleet of agents? Is it something else? Just like, what's like the next big shift to how engineers operate that either you're ready, working out or implementing, or just like, starting to happen? I would say we're shifting more towards a sink, like, asynchronous, and so to point the fleets of agent, like, that's why routines are so interesting, because almost like, I used to be, like, you know, doing a prompt and synchronously. And then, I would, like, maybe, like, a kickoff different props, asynchronous asynchronously. But now, I can actually have a routine that actually generates, you know, these, these props for me. So it's almost like the level abstraction keeps pulling up a little bit. And so I would, yeah, wish I have a crystal ball to see what this is good. It'll be fun, actually, for you, me to revisit a year from now. No, I wouldn't hear more about this. This is, so help us understand, what is it, what is routines, and then what is, what do you say synchronous? You're writing a prompt in it just kind of goes off and is it writing it immediately? Talk about what this actually looks like. Yeah, so routines is like how you can, like, so if you remember, I was trying about my, but I used to do as always, like, you know, wake up with my morning cup of coffee, hey, look at through this Slack channel for me. But then now, like, I have a routine that I set to run every morning, a certain time to say, hey, that's right. But then it's able to actually go and kickoff agents on your behalf. And so that's because, like, that's what, like, and, you know, even, you know, before it would be, oh, you could, like, yeah, do a car and drop to automate, like, but now it's, hey, look at these feedback. And then if you're seeing some of these bugs that what are some polish fixes that you might be able to, to knock out, and then it would, like, go kickoff and then I wake up and I ended up having PRs that I could review versus before, which is still more of a kind of different agents that, and then it's still, I'm still thinking, oh, okay, now what do I do with this information? So it's like that higher level abstraction of, okay, now how can I actually write a routine that also basically does prompts for me for spawning different agents? So I think what will move more towards that kind of, like, a synchronous style of working. So interesting. So, like, in a sense as a manager, you have these kind of things you do daily. And what you're saying here is you can set up these prompts that kind of check in every day on the things you would be, be doing, like, how are the projects going? What's falling behind? What should I implore? Who is the, who's struggling? What's how do I fix them, improve some polish? And so the idea here, which you're describing here is kind of write these things that you almost do as a manager daily and have caught essentially do them for you. And then show you, here's what I'm doing. Here's what it, here's what there's to review. And then it's, it's even, like, then giving even more autonomy at some point of it, you know what, like, go for it. Like, for example, the verification is really good. Yeah. Go for it. So you give it, like, a little bit of freedom to do more of this. Okay. That is so interesting. It reminds me, speaking on this idea of go for it, I don't, like, I wasn't planning to talk about this, but I just watch Tyler Cohen have this awesome talk about just, like, what's happening? I don't know if you know Tyler Cohen is really smart. They've kind of, as a podcast. And he just had, like, there's so much talk of the people that are doing best in this world. His term is initiative. They have initiative. Another term people use agency. Is that something, just like, you know, people hear this a lot, just like the people that seem to be doing best are taking the most initiative, getting the most proactive, have the most agency. Does that kind of spark any thoughts to you just what people may need to, I don't know, think about or move on. Actually, that's an agent, it's, I love that word agency. That's what we've really holding porn on the cloud code and co-working team. But it's interesting. I say along with high, because with, like, we really, it's about, like, hey, here's a problem. And then it's really everybody on the team has ideas for how to adjust the prom. So it's a really high agency. And then we say with high agency, it's also high accountability. So it's all about, like, making sure folks have that freedom to cook. You know, they, and, but then it's also like, okay, what's the accountability for it as well? And that's where, and I'm going to go back to, like, what's the hypothesis of what you're, you know, like, trying to solve? So I think, yeah, the balance, like, we're, you know, almost like two sides are the same kind of agency. And then accountability, I think has served our team really well. It's such an important element of a agency. Okay, cool. Everyone's off doing stuff, but okay, what have you asked us? What have you brushed it up? What have you done? So kind of along those lines, it feels like there's this vibe shift recently from token maxing, just go crazy, spend as much as possible, just see what's possible to, like, wait, what are we actually getting out of this? How much is it cost? Hey, what's the ROI? Interestingly, Boris was actually like, head of productivity and meta. That was like his job is measuring, inch productivity. And, and then also just this, like, tweet of lights per code, like, code, shift, like, there's this, like, interesting discussion of just how do you actually measure productivity increase and ROI of AI tools in spend? How do you, like, you know, you guys have the unfair advantage of getting free tokens working on the topic? With that in mind, what, what have you learned about just how to measure, say, ROI of engineers in today's world? This end productivity is such a fascinating topic. Yeah, because I remember, you know, like, like, even Boris mentioned, like, you know, we'll first start with, like, lines of code. And then that's throughput. And then I remembered once then there was a debate of, well, lines of code, this engineer had this crazy lines of code, but they just took some library and then just was porting it, so they checked it in. And then I was like, well, maybe it's significant lines of code. And then it's, well, what if we're, you know, updating our frameworks and now we're generating less code, but like, the output still the same. So now I'm like, okay, maybe it's, it's like time to land PR. But, but it's very interesting of it's always been whichever metric. It's, it's like, if, if you're really focused on the out, like, my advice here is, one is output, like, is the output really going towards the outcome? Because yeah, like the, the, the token maxing, it's kind of like a, it's almost like the lines of code that we used to have, but I'm really much more about a, what is it that we're trying to, to do? Like, all of this, you know, there, there was another saying, I really, like, don't first take motion for progress. Because if you're measuring, like, you know, like, tool user usage, then you're, you're measuring the action, but is it really making whatever that end, I'll come up here as like, important. And so I, I really try to zoom out and focus on, what is the problem we're trying to solve? What's a good way to measure that? And then that's what we, we focus mostly on versus kind of like the, the productivity measurement. I would say though, like, outside of metrics, especially if on teams as you're having more people adopt AI tooling, I would say definitely go on a listening tour for the, for the leaders listening to a podcast, especially, you know, I, I, I love to focus on the senior engineers as well. Like, here from them on what's working, what's not, how can we actually make it better? Because they will also help you multiply and scale that across a full engineering team. And sometimes it's those conversations where you might get spark an idea that comes up and also really good shared learning versus, you know, like metric dashboards. It's very interesting. I've learned some good lessons for metrics. I'm all about like, it's really a great, when you have a metric that you can actually help but always keep in mind of, is, you know, kind of my whole growth mindset of, is it still serving you? Always keep in mind, like, is that metric really still serving the outcome that you were aiming for? Like a fun example I have of this is in the early Facebook Marketplace days. We were kind of like launching by region and we really want to make sure we're building at the lightful product before we expand. And I remember, in the early days, one thing we would keep an eye on is kind of like number of sellers. And I remember it after launching her first region. I'm like, huh, in this area, the number of sellers is low, but actually people are like people are finding items that they're looking for, which is what we're aiming for. Like helping people find items that they need. And then I realized in that region, it wasn't large number of sellers, but there were power sellers. But our first gate before we expand would have just been like, you know, factoring heavily number of sellers. And I remember that quick conversation of, hey, and this goes back to that whole people who use things in ways you may not expect and shift it or eight learn. And so then we updated the metric to go, oh, you know, like it's not a number of sellers because it did factor in power sellers. And so that's the advice I have to look whatever metric, whether for productivity or even for product, always keep an eye and make sure that you're not just having blinders on that's blindly following a metric that used to make sense because sometimes the landscape can change so fast, even the metric themselves might need to be adjusted. And this comes back to your process that you shared of having clawed watch all the PRs shipping per engineer, let's say. And then not focusing on the metrics, but focusing on that leading talk conversation about what impact this have, what was made some bugs that happened. And that being a really powerful way of understanding how, what's going on with this engineer. Awesome. Let me come back to the just this question of speed and quality and just like impact. Is there anything else you've learned about just how to balance those things, just like this crazy velocity of code that's being generated and just staying on top of quality and impact? Is there anything else there that might be helpful to other teams that are trying to wrangle all this, all these PRs being shipped every day? I would say, and this is what honestly, we were, we want to keep doing more of it and being better attitude, like the proactive quality. So especially for quality, making sure that what are the experiences that are key, and making sure you actually, you know, actually speaking of metrics, those are really good things that you make sure you can kind of like see trends over time. And so like on the quality front, we found like, and this is like the more proactive we can be of like making sure we can get an earlier detection into quality. And so like that's been one thing that we've been paying a lot of attention to. Like, so like, you know, I started this, hey, let's have a concept of what's bad versus what's sad. And bad is like a very bad e-recoverable error. And sad is something that's kind of like a paint-white recoverable, but it's interesting when you stack up sads, it could, you know, generally go to bad. But even having like starting with a high-level framework like that, and because if not, like I think sometimes with dashboard, you can have, you know, like a time to load or all these other, but when you're dealing with a lot of different product surfaces, it's harder to go away. Is that a good number or not a good number? And so one thing that's helped us as versus just raw, you know, like performance or, you know, like reliability numbers, also having some framework of what we think is, you know, like a bad experience and making sure we're focused on addressing those and then also keeping an eye on where we're seeing in terms of the sad. I like that. Yeah, like the bad and sad. So these are kind of like thresholds of this is bad. Okay, this is serious. And this isn't in terms of like performance or failures or what, what sort of things are you measuring here? Uh, so for example, like we allow each team like speak of agency. So knowing that bad is like a really bad irrecoverable error. We enable each team of further surface areas or it could be services that, you know, they lead. What is, like so for example, on CLI could be crash rates. Like a crash is pretty bad. You lost work. And for example, sad might be hey, is it flickering? Like it might be recoverable. But we have and that's why it's been interesting because before each because surface areas are different, like we would have all these dashboards, but it's harder to zoom out and go, okay, what's the overall theme of the experience? So to your point, we give high agency to each team of what we think constitutes a bad and what's aside and then what's the goal that each team wants to take? One of the, like the main takeaway I'm hearing here is one of the best tools for staying on top of quality is just monitoring and tests versus spending more time reviewing, which makes sense because the speed is just impossible to stay on top of. And it almost speaks to this idea of closing the loop for agents to be able to kind of figure things out themselves. They know what success looks like, what will fix it ourselves. So that's a really interesting takeaway is just invest more in the tests, emails, images, part of this and then just like monitoring failures and speed and things like that. That's right. Something, I think this is public. I know that you guys have this dashboard that tracks just like efforts, like how often people are like, because they're so pissed and frustrated. There's like a funny term for it. I think every year what it's called. Yes. Actually, I remember yeah, that was last September because we were all, we were all seeing some frustrations and yeah, that was an injury on the team of, hey, we should maybe track square words. I'm like, oh, that's a great idea. I remember it. I had just, you know, Joe and we were having that really fun conversation. Yes. So it's, it's again, it's very interesting to have like, look at, and that's why like evils us hard, too, because it's going back to like that user experience and how we can make sure it's a delightful experience and less frustrating. But yeah, the swear word dashboard is a fun one. This episode is brought to you by Mercury, radically different banking, loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs. And now with command, I've been a customer of Mercury's for over six years. I have never once thought about leaving. Mercury is basically what happens when banking is built by product people, not by bankers. They make it so easy. 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I've heard about a couple things that you've implemented that are pretty unique, I think, to how teams operate and I think is something that has worked really well for you. One is making every manager, start as an IC, and then just every manager has to continue being an IC part-time, kind of this player coach approach, talk about that, why that's so important in today's world. I love it. It's funny when I first joined, and I'm an amazing recruiting partner, and I know this whole theme of growth mindset is just because the landscape is changing so fast. Work well before, like, may not make sense, and even what makes us today may need to change tomorrow. That's what I have to keep reminding myself. When I first joined recruiters, like, okay, yeah, we have these couple like manager postings, and I'm like, you know, because actually, it came from like a listening to I did with all the members on the team. And I heard a lot of these, hey, I really appreciate the agency, but how can I make sure partization? And so I kind of threw that. And then there was some really good feedback to of making sure that it's not too many layers of reviews. There was good feedback. Some folks might have tried some of the companies are like, you know, and then I'm like, hmm, when I actually think as a leader, if you actually start as I see first, without the kind like worry of supporting people, because that's a very heavy responsibility that, you know, I think, like, mages, but like that, but before you have to take on that full responsibility, give yourself that maker time to actually tack deep into the code and learn the code based and I or or or the product, like whatever it is, it doesn't have to, like honestly, the peers I do are like, but it's more about for me, it's important because it keeps me in the flow, because we're making so many changes to co-work and code. So even me doing PRs is less about what it is I'm fixing. It's more about me using the the primary data to keep that touch, because as amazing as metrics and everything aren't, I do look at those dashboards. If you as a leader, if you're not, you know, like living and breathing your your product every day, you sometimes kind of like lose touch of a touch and feel of the product. But anyways, on the manager front, I think giving time for managers that joined to be able to go deep into do that before supporting people, and then they actually like end up building really great rapport with the team, like because if not, I think sometimes as managers, you know, you might come in during any team and you instantly think, I have to manage, let me dig into my manager toolbox and and do manager things, but if you actually give yourself time to not have to worry about that first and actually learn what it's like to be an engineer or a teammate on the team, that also goes really far to building rapport. And in terms of like using the product, I think that's interesting. Every team I've joined, one of the first actually across all the different products. It could be VR, it could be smart glasses, it was like Instagram, using when I first joined one comment that comes back to me is, hey, you know what, I really love how you're actually using what we build. It's refreshing to see, you know, you giving user feedback, like like, and so I think as leaders too, it's also a way for us to experience how the work personally that the team does. Something that people may not realize, you were overseeing an org of like 500 people at bed at before you moved to have a throwback, right? And you moved to IC, IC engineer basically had a throwback from that. I started out like it was for a very short amount of time, but actually this was my journey between Microsoft and Meta. So at Meta, I interviewed as a manager, but I think at least for the first quarter, I was also an IC, because I really wanted to learn what it's like to be a meta-engineer. Because before then, I was at Microsoft, kind of like cut my teeth on engineering at Microsoft, so I knew all the code bases, the tools and languages. And yeah, but it was so valuable to have those first months, like actually learned what it's like to ship as a meta-engineer. Plus, it was also fun. Like I think sometimes we forget, if we like, but that's by the way, what I love about Cloud Code, because the last time I shipped production software at Meta was probably 2017, and every year I might start, like I do a lot of dog fooding and a lot of, you know, like I also used dog fooding to help me like vet the quality of a product as well. But it's been a very long time since I shipped production software. It's because part of it is, I don't, I don't want to screw something up. Like I'm always, I'm always so scared of, what if I do something, and then I cause a bug, and then I'm verifying everything properly, or am I wasting someone's time? Because, you know, like also the tool flows with change. But I remember that first week on Cloud, I'm like, at first I almost, again, went to my usual, let me go meet all the engineers and treat them to coffee, and then I'm like, oh, let me, let me ask Cloud. And so Cloud was just really good onboarding buddy of mine, because I was like, here's about the Kobe's asking it questions. And, and then it also really, you know, helped me, like, you know, do the automated tests, but I also want to still do some manual testing. And I asked, like, hey, help me come up with, like, what's the way for me to manually test this to make sure I cover all the case? But all that, then gives me confidence that, okay, I can ship here as a good. And then I got, like, kind of more comfortable with again. And, and so, um, I've actually had a lot of friends reach out to me that I've been managing for a while. That's like, hey, I'm shipping code again. Thanks to Cloud. And so, um, but in general, it's, yeah, like, it's, it's just important to me as leaders to make sure you're kind of like using the product that your team builds. It's so interesting that you are overseeing the team as an engineer leader that is most changing the role of an engineer. It's such a matter role. Like, the work of an engineer is transforming because of the software that you're building. One question along these lines is just, do you worry about engineers skills to code atrophing from not actually writing code anymore? And does it even matter? Is this like something you think about? Is it a big deal? It's, it's interesting because we actually have this, uh, discussion on the team a bit. Like, they're, like, are there things that we miss? Or, like, actually, to your point, I'm always like thinking about, like, when someone's onboarding and ramping, like, you have Boris who hand-brewed the code in the early days. And of course, now does any more but he gained that knowledge from before, because he was in the code days. So for, especially all the engineers that join, I'm also like, make sure you're like taking the time to, to all the work that you do still get the understanding of the architecture or the change because it goes back to that trust, but verify. Maybe one day won't matter anymore, but at the pace that we're going, I actually still think, understand, like, it's always double-clicking on that layer that you depend on. Like, maybe that to me is a matter. Like, it's always take that time to learn about your dependencies, because this way, when your dependencies change, like, you're kind of like, more, or you might not be ticking advantage of changes to, you know, dependencies. So I think it's always about kind of like, uh, doing that double-click. But the other thing that we found interesting on the Cloud Code team is, after a while, we felt, uh, it could start being a lonely experience, because we all started just working with our agent so much. So recently, we started, uh, maybe a, like, a pairwise programming lunch. And because what we also learned was on Cloud Code, everybody uses a Cloud Code, who work, everybody uses a flow so differently. And so we found that while when we two pairwise programming, we actually will learn so much from each other. And, um, but, and then the other thing too is we, we make sure that, like, we also, uh, have the makeer time together too. So, like, for example, hackathons is, is another thing we really like to do just to make sure we're kind of like interacting together as a team. That is such a good point. Just like the loneliness that emerges, because used to be inch teams building code together, someone's doing back in, someone's doing front in, someone's doing a US app, probably a bunch of people, you know, on the back end. And it's like, you know, we'll have 10 clouds running and pair all doing all these things. That is such a good idea of just, like, finding ways to connect engineers. So, the idea here is, like, almost pair programming, but not. It's like, kind of parallel. It's like, parallel play when kids are growing up. Like, you're kind of working next to each other, but building your own things. But even just watching how other people build is, your finding is really valuable. Yeah. And it's because our, our own tool change is changing so fast as well. But yeah, it's very interesting to me, like, everybody on on our team just uses Cloud Code and, and co-work in different ways. And so every time I watch someone work, then I, I learned something myself as well. How do you manage people getting over, like, obsessed with their optimizing their workflows? Is there anything you're just, like, okay, it's fine. Just kidding. Just kidding. You know, I haven't seen too many folks on our team. Like, it's, I think, as everybody is just really excited about, you know, either a, like, an architecture day that we think will be higher reliability or some product experience. So most folks, like, that's what we talk about a lot. Like, yeah, we, we, um, we don't over, it's fun lunchtime conversations, but I don't think we over optimize because there's no, because there's no perfect answer. It's too much to do. Is there anything? These are really interesting insights, just like, as the role transformed, things come things go. So I'm curious what else is kind of lost in this new world of software engineering. I used to be an engineer. I don't know if you know this. I was an engineer for 10 years. And it was like, so fun, just to sit there in flow, coding, you know, this feeling, just like, oh, it's working. We get a compile. It's so amazing. I'm making progress. And now it's like, you don't do that anymore. You just sit there and kind of wait for agents to build the thing, what else, what else is kind of lost in this new world for engineers? It's so funny. I just had that conversation with the engineer and the team of talk about flow. Like, remember the old days, you have this really gnarly problem and you pop the music soundtrack in and then you're just in the zone. So yeah, there is a little, and then there was always that big a humbleman at the end. I would remember. Like, is it, yeah, you remember that you finally cracked it, you know, that, yay! So what we do, but like, I think now we get a lot of joy from like the product. But I do think there is, because I hear from other engineers as well, love it. Well, I, some of the hardest parts is what I use to enjoy. Like, yeah, I heard that from another engineer as well. And so I think we're all just kind of like shifting. But I do see like the thing most, and that's why I was, I was talking about like the Paris programming in the hackathon. But did recently come up more, folks were so kind of feel like it started here, lovely experience. So interesting. Within Anthropica, I'm curious. So engineering, like the most transformed, I think of any role right now. What other, what's like the second most transformed role so far? Would you say within Anthropica, that's most different from how was like a couple years ago, let's say? It's, it's all the coding adjacent roles or shifting. Like, PM is, I know like you were chatting with Kat, I think PM is also transformed quite a bit, because PM by our no longer bottlenecked if they have an idea, waiting on engineering bandwidth. So that's kind of like the next or that's on shift, like actually our PMs have also helped those role-up sleeves and helped shift, you know, like some features when we, when we were, you know, like when, when there was it, when there was a, you know, something we might to do and an engineer was unable to. So I think it's all the coding adjacent roles are starting to shift. But I think that's where, again, the verification is important, because when you have more different disciplines checking in, how to make sure everybody has higher confidence, I also think we need to do more to keep automating these other portions of the workflows, like for sure we focus a lot on coding. But next when you think about like design or data science, like those are starting to be the next area, as I think are good opportunities for us to see how we can, yeah, like start an improving kind of the experiences there as well. Yeah, I have a speed of data science, I have a data science friend and he was just saying how data science is so different now, where now most of their job is people doing their own like not amazing data science work using AI and then just like showing it to the data scientist here. Here's the analysis. I did just make sure it's right and have the time it's not right. And so the job is just like a whole different job now instead of doing the work that they thought they wanted to do and that's like, all right, I just were viewing how it's AI data science all the time with the hell. I could have along the lines coming back to just how your team operates and how things are changing. Let me see if something comes with this question, what should an engineering manager expect from their team now versus like a couple of years ago? What's like a normal and an baseline expectation of how things should work? Is it other than just, you know, we're shipping faster, is there anything else? Oh, interesting. Well, definitely I think most commits are clawed assisted and so that was a shift. I think, you know, that kind of like mentioned we have like slack channels with all the feedback and also our dashboards that we have equipped to call. I think having engineers build and keep building that stronger product sense muscle is I think also look another and I think that in general helps kind of be at these really trauma minded product engineers. I would say more of these roles that were traditionally non-engineering. You do now see engineers being it like and sometimes you're just blocked by you know waiting for you know cross functional partner. I think there's there's less of those blocks now just because the models are able to augment additional capabilities that you may not have as a from as an engineer. So it's kind of interesting. It's both directions, engineers becoming more product minded and responsible for the quality and success of a product and then everybody becoming an engineer more and more. Yeah, that's right. Look, it's all blurring. Yeah. I forget who said this but there's this like like what is a role anymore and this this guy said that it's like what's the average of what you do? Let's like the highest percentage of what you and that's getting your role now. Whatever it is to do. Yeah, oh man. I want to come back to your point about obsession with the product living breathing the product dark fooding. I talked to a bunch of people that work with you about you and that's the thing that came on most just like your obsession with living and breathing the product using the product constantly. Whatever it is, you're building this idea of dark fooding. Talk about just like why that is so important. Why that's something you instill within your teams and reports. I'll have it. Yeah, I think it's really and this has worked for me. It's just been a really good way for me to keep a pulse on you know at any time you build product there's a dream like you're really hoping to enable an experience or make an experience better. So I think being able like that helps me keep really close to the pulse. I also think maybe something like for sure on Visual Studio that was like you know where I got this love of it but it's interesting because even marketplace I remembered every once in a while I'll do like even after I left the team actually one time I had like a MacBook era wanted to sound like oh you know I haven't sold anything on Marketplace lately let me and I could not believe at the minute I put it up for sale a seller or a buyer tried to scam me and it was an interesting like new scam factor I didn't detect and so but that goes to again like people will use your products in ways that you may not expect and so especially as leaders or even like anyone on the team we all have different like life like actually it's it's funny when when I was you know supporting the VR and AR teams somehow how I used VR the setup I would always be able to find these really weird floor height issues so that ended up being a oh I took a you know like I'm gonna help us you know like because somehow I got a good repro-environment and so I think it's number one like making that's how you keep your pulse on the product that you're building and don't get too lost in metrics and dashboards only your presentations. I think that's such an important point you're seeing there that I just want to make sure people here is just like like there's always this idea of anecdotal evidence and just like examples versus the data and what you're saying here is as a product leader as an endulator you found a lot of success in like the anecdotes the specific little one-offs that you experience as a as a user versus like obsessing with the data only yeah and and actually sometimes it's also how I've been able to most effectively help the team so for example the last time I was on I I was a you know leading a VR team and you know because like back then the like I it would have been I was I have not checked in any code into that code base just because I was really worried about like messing up the offering system but what was a gap we were doing a lot of polish fixes and I was I wanted to I'm like hey you know what I'll use my dominating time to actually vet how the experience looks and and so that was also probably a way that I felt I could still meaningfully contribute to how Paul the quality bar for the team and and then like I say like every team member usually that's always really appreciates because I think as a lead like you know leader you're supporting folks on team that outside of metrics and everything everybody really wants to make sure their work matters and yeah just just making sure that you know leaders use your product I think folks feel the leaders on remain like really engaged and not too distanced and this connects a lot with your point that engineers need to become more product-minded that engineers need to become more PME PME needs to become a but this is like as an engineer this is the one way to do it use the product constantly and that'll help you understand what is missing in the product as a user because you're just using it that's right and and I would say if you're leading a team where it's really hard for you to use a product that meet with customers like whatever the other avenues that kind of like I think that's also been really important to every time I've done customer visits I always learned something new like actually I remember that was a Facebook marketplace we're trying to launch to a Latin American so we had you know we were testing in Chile and I remembered it it just wasn't doing as well as the other regions we've done it but everything else we've we've tried and then I remember I'm lucky and we had a really small research trip where I went to Chile and I remember getting us a whole bunch of Android phones for us it was first small crew like just three of us and upon landing and upon me opening up these Android phones and I'm like ah you know the LTE connection was really was much slower than what we were used to in the US and so I'm like oh the marketplace feed didn't even load very well on these low LTE situations what a what a growth block you know you can't even load but again that's why it's so important to always you know like listen to customer feedback and and get that fast feedback loop I think it was Jeff Bezos that said if you have data and you have an anecdote trust anecdote over the data surprisingly and that's a great example okay just a couple more questions one is in your talk you had this really interesting slide at the end of what questions you're kind of thinking about right now that you haven't figured out how to solve with how much is changing I'm going to read the three I'm curious just like if it's still least three there's anything else like current problems we need to figure out that we haven't solved in how we operate what you shared in your talk was do we still need separate iOS and Android orgs how far do you push fully a ton on automated reviews and which role with role blurring how do you ensure everyone's equally productive still problems is there anything else that you're thinking about like okay we need to crack this we haven't figured this out you know the iOS Android one like I think we're still actually it's funny because it's speaking of like the deep expertise we definitely feel that it's really important like it's really important to still bring on folks with those expertise but we probably don't need like as a lot because people are flexing so it's again making sure we have you know like the Android and iOS experts but then less of a the larger kind of like mobile or one per and so but again that's still a balance that we're trying to figure out if do we have the right and then enough expertise the the second one was sorry what was that second one oh yeah it is how far do you push fully an automated review yes actually well this is a fun one like you know with the content design check I think we're we're looking for across all of it like how do you actually get what good looks like and so I have like actually the verification is still one that we I think and that's kind of like the second and the third that I think there's more a lot more opportunities there for us but the how far to push I think looking at where we think experts still matters and then also again have to keep as far as ourselves okay is there a way to leverage our expertise to also automate like I think like looking across the whole end to end experience like making sure we're not missing and like I think we we come out if I'm like an engineering standpoint but making sure on experiences how we think about those other areas I think there's definitely still more that we can do basically how do you solve how do you set up a verification that the experience is what you wanted it to be exactly that and I think that one is still a hard one to crack as you kind of like mention e-valt because it's some of it for sure is accuracy but it's also that experience so that's something that yeah we're still kind of thinking through awesome is there anything else that's like this has changed recently we got to figure out a rethink the way we operate or is this kind of the big ones you know I think because with routines and everything being more async I think there is starting to be a high load on our context switching because I even remember I myself was like oh I kicked up like and so I think that's probably another thing we have to think about how to be you know whether for team members or our users how can we actually make that experience better to reduce that load because I do see the context switching look at you see I think like if you have 20 agents right there's just endless checking in and reviewing and you have to remember what you're doing there it's like such an interesting world where like the idea of flow we talked about before like engineers and most people like there's less of the just hours of flow but now the agents can kind of just remind you here's where you're at like the reset to switch almost is easier because you don't have to like reath learn everything you don't have to like re understand the code base of the architecture you can kind of just like okay but here's what we're trying to do it's kind of like both got better got worse well it's interesting because I used to do book out like focus time for like you know the focus time for coding because you want that dedicated and then the whole context switching and then it's interesting now that because I can't context much more with more async agents I'm noticing I do actually have to go back and block like a focus time for me to catch up on all the you know different async work that I could do yeah they have any thoughts on the solution there because that's hard just like there's like people just want to do more and more and just how do you do that without constantly context switching truly hard and knowing yes I agree all right definitely I haven't cracked it so interesting okay there's a question I thought of as we're talking that I'm like so excited to you're answering that I wasn't even planning to ask this but it's so important these days which is just like end jobs and hiring so interesting that you would think AI would make engineers less necessary on the other hand it feels like you guys are hiring engineers like crazy open eyes hiring engineers like crazy just like there's so much demand for engineers where do you think this goes what do you think about just the future of the end role and this big question but just thoughts I'll actually I'll share some vulnerability here one speaking of like big open questions I really do think how we grow the the next generation just because how you and me got to our engineering path is just so different it's almost like okay now when you graduate from school it's like how do you kind of fast forward and but the important thing to me but still understand kind of like you know that double click I talked about to the layer of an eat but that that is a big question I have and I wish I have the answers but I I wonder if it's for software engineering it's almost like you go more towards a fellow ship or apprenticeship program I know it's like it's technically we have like internships that would but those were the kind of like three months and little projects but I do wonder of um and I wish I have a crisp all here but it's yeah like how do you almost like cram in some of the and maybe it won't matter but you know some of the life experiences that we all got how do you actually enable us to kind of like teach that to you know the next generation of builders right like if you don't have to ever look at code what's the incentive for a new software engineer to truly understand how infrastructure works and and yeah and all these things that are like kind of foundational and it's interesting maybe the the malls would get good enough that it doesn't have idea you know but I do think there's something about that double click because I think that's where there might be an opportunity to improve the product or the system but figuring out how to learn that not necessarily by you know like year years of typing code yeah yeah like somebody's got to have to understand code it's something like it's like some co-ball engineer they have to like pull out of that retirement one day like do you remember how to write Python you know actually what's really fun what if my you know previous managers I mean he started software engineer when it was punch cards and it's so fabulous like he's been messaging me everything he's been building with cloud code and I'm like well what a career that you go from like he's really like he you know he's really kind of like seeing this whole change so maybe I think for us a thing about is like when I think about his career how he got started with punch cards was also totally totally different than the now and so it might be that I think it'll be interesting for us to see what remains important and then what changes in terms of importance and then it's like how do you have game like I have a theory maybe maybe that's the what is important both shift over time and then how do you kind of kind of build the proficient scene oh yeah just learn the things that really matter like the argument that my constantly here is just like it's a new level of abstraction just like assembly and binary like it just keeps going up and up and now okay we don't need to actually look at the code it's like a new layer of traction prompts and and the clouds thinking you know messages yeah and it's maybe like okay what is the interesting problem what's the prioritization for experience to build like it's interesting maybe we're kind of yeah and then when you build things how do you know it's actually resonating and and it's kind of like doing what you intended and it's good yeah like is this gonna are we just building a bunch of sloppiers is actually yeah architecture that will work I think the advantage though for young people is they are so it's so much easier to just lean in and work in this new way versus being stuck in the way the things used to be it's like rare it's like amazing how many long-time engineers like yourself have adapted and embrace this it's like so hard to just change everything okay let's do it how is it? Well because the rate of change is also so fast actually that that was the one thing of I remember the first time I was probably son of three five or three six like and I remember it still like making some mistakes when I was doing things on the side I'm like hmm what are you and and then what I noticed was some of the engineers are resisting I totally like oh let's see it's you know like look at all of these but then I think it was hard to understand of how kind of like the exponential rate of improvements and so always and maybe that's another interesting thing that I myself am learning to like there might have been something I tried to automate that cloud wasn't quite good enough and then actually in the next model oh well now it is good so it's always also thinking about what may have not worked like it might be worth a time to revisit because you know that now might be a new capability yeah that comes up a lot on this podcast just build something that is almost working that is at the edge because once the model gets there you'll be so far ahead of everybody else okay uh final question you may have already answered this with when you just said but what keeps you up at night you know the thing that keeps me up at night is probably um it's how we so you know we talked about kind of like cloud code and co-working team culture that's and the team culture is really important to me like it's the one team mentality and I you know I share with folks and by the way culture is like a living breathing thing it's not just a postery slap on a wall and it changes over time and it it shows up and how we treat each other how we how we're there for each other and so the culture that teams important to me because we are we are growing and and uh and since the culture shifts like making sure that maintaining the things are important that we are we still really like it's really important for me to have like diverse perspectives so then we can have you know like good healthy open honest the data and the open and we have like welcome those and kind of what I call that one team mentality that when you get closer to a finish line look behind you and see is there some of our teams of health because we can finish as a team that's probably the thing that keeps me up at night and it's it's like you know there's so many other hard problems right but I think maybe a lot of the other ones are product or engineering challenges that yes we have you know like dashboards or theories or hypothesis like but uh the culture is like a human aspect that is um like I think that's the one that I I always want to make sure that we're as we grow we're still kind of like maintaining that culture because it is kind of like the fiber of the team and like when it starts drifting it it I'm always worried of it you know like if it's just are we catching it and having conversations has a team together to to to make sure we're kind of all wanting the culture to grow on the right direction yeah I imagine everybody is struggling with this considering the pace of change and the pace of hiring just like especially to company like athropy that's in this crazy like the most unprecedented growth trajectory in history I could see how that could be a challenge with so much change so it makes sense like even you know at Airbnb when I was there like that was quite a growth trajectory and that was nothing like what you guys are going through and that was a constant topic of conversation how do we maintain the culture I'm curious what was your experience of me be to maintain the culture as there's is growing a couple things one is just the what worked well as the founders being obsessed with it like every common every all hands every every big meeting is just like reminding of like the culture and the value of the culture and what the values are just the founders top down being obsessed with it was a big part of it it just like couldn't have a meeting without that coming up as a as a thing the other is a memory I always come back to is where it's Sheryl Sandberg's became at a come to come to a fireside chat and somebody asked her just how do you maintain culture as you scale because we're just growing so fast and it's so hard to make deal with all this change in culture and all these new people and her advice was this is actually the problem you want to have because this means you're growing and doing well and this is normal versus you can nothing will change if you're doing badly like that's that's that's a much worse situation when you're not growing and you're not hiring like crazy that's a much worse situation that will cause even more they even suffering so this is a good problem you're dealing with is her advice which is always stuck with me oh that's great like it's interesting like here you talk I think one of the important things to kind of clock out and cover team is whether I see's or managers but this is a thing I especially as for managers on the team is really important that we all talk about for sure what's going on but also just be open about what's not going well because then if we can actually have a conversation what's not going well that's how we can actually go ahead and address it like my my my speaking of what keys we have about like my night mirror is especially if someone's in a manager position and and I'm like hey how are things going everything's fine I'm like oh my gosh I'm not doing fine I know this thing's like like it's that that whole like you know how there was this meme of the doctor care a couple of coffee and a group that's on fire this is like that that is my my nightmares so that's actually a discussion I have with a lot of something but especially imagine so especially when they're first drawing now hey let's always have these open conversations so that we can solve problems together I imagine this is something a lot of people struggle with seeing so many people around them doing super well at least seemingly doing well everything's going great I'm growing this some of the awesome company or like just like everything it's hard to it's like hard to actually be honest and say again it's not going great I'm struggling here I'm falling behind because everyone around you is just like on the surface feeling like they're killing it yeah before we get to a very exciting lightning round is there anything else that you either want to leave listeners with anything else that we didn't cover anything else that's important you want to share maybe one thing is like just a suggestion of because you know we talked about how you how can call do like automate like one other thing that's really big on clock code and co-working culture is explicit permission to kill processes that no longer serve us and so maybe a suggestion is for you know any anyone you know like on Albert can a team relating teams like pick your like what's one process that you either dread doing or is really highly noisy or is like really expensive in terms of like just a lot of like it might it or something that's just very manual like pick one thing and first ask is it still having its purpose like for example when like even our planning like actually that was my own big first learning when I first shot clocked on like hey maybe we should you know do a six month road map dock and and but we're going to do super lightweight because I don't want to waste a lot of time planning and I I felt we did a really lightweight process without such a good learning for me because uh the exercise was good to kick-start conversations and then you're in line but like three months into it I'm like wait have we still referenced time because so much has changed so that was also something I like until that was also something I changed that I myself brought in thinking hey maybe this will this will help so always be open to learning and always ask yourself whatever process you have is this still serving its purpose just because the feels is changing so fast I love that advice I got to follow up on this real quick so what is it how do you think about planning now do you do any planning is it just like a month long road map what's kind of like the simple way to explain where you have with that yeah I call it jet planning now we're just in time planning so it is like around like because yeah I think six months was too long so now for sure some projects will take more than a month but we try to do like a month planning like really lightweight actually there's not even dots it's really just assigning on a little spreadsheet of whether we think it's important but even that when I'm kind of thinking through hey like every week we should probably still keep a like what we're trying is here are the the month priorities and we're gonna try it up but I have a feeling like every week will probably want to do really quick like hey just to check yep this is the still this month's priorities good but yeah like but now we've shrunk it to jet monthly planning so it's monthly meaning for the next month here's a little sheet slash Excel spreadsheet of what we're planning to do for the next month and then every week check in as a still we're planning to do for the next month yeah it's it's yeah like very very weird but even that when I I'm also still feeling how can we even automate this more because I don't I never wanted to be feeling like a tax when someone has to you know update the spreadsheet so this is actually yeah like just yesterday we're chatting hey how can we actually automate this you know speaking to that question always ask yourselves can we actually automate this better like my p.m. brain is like that's so like how could you not do something like that okay here's what we're thinking for the next month let's just check it once a week make sure this like it's hard to imagine that not happening and you don't have a lot of items on the spreadsheet is what I'm hearing also yeah like we really try it focus so like we will share out like here's what we think are the highest priorities and again for that agency given the priorities them like everybody's like they're kind of like item for how they think uh addresses those priorities is there anything that's like here's for the next like six months bigger bath kind of stuff or is it just like let's just think what month ahead I like so well usually definitely there's themes of where we think the the work and so well we'll definitely like and actually the the whole team will bring everyone together uh like every every six months so there we'll usually kick off like some themes but then it's really the making sure we keep the pulse of what but because again like even those themes change you know so fast when uh the landscape changes all right let's blow the spreadsheet let's take a look oh man this this whole podcast could have been just talking about this planning stuff that you do okay I'm gonna have to find someone else to talk about this because it's so just how you all plan uh yeah okay well Fiona with that we reached our very exciting lightning round I've got five questions for you are you ready ready okay first question what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people oh I will say for fiction actually two authors I recommend to everyone Margaret Atwood and how Haruki Murakami those are just to like I I mean I grew up in Canada so so I I read a lot a lot of that would bring up but her books are fascinating because it's almost like speculative fiction of you can kind of squint and say okay could this actually you know like happen to to us a society so so I love her take on speculative fiction and Murakami I love his um magical realism style it's it's um but then the one book or authors but the one book I always recommend to everyone to read at least once a year or you know the little prince I like I think I'm I'm sure we probably all read it at some point in our lives but I think it's a I read it at least once a year just you know to to remind me to to think about the kind of look what's truly important wow that doesn't come up a bunch okay I love it uh favorite recent movie or tv show you've really enjoyed I have it watch tv show that's very common across and drop a people I have on the podcast but I will share with you what I always have downloaded on my phone so that if I'm on the airplane um so there's three movies I I'll always have on my phone because I I think they're just so so fun to to watch if I have time one is Emily it's just a French movie that I've my gosh all of these movies are going to be very old by the way it's going to be like vintage movies but I I love that I'm really super whimsical so really highly recommend it to and even the haven't seen it it's uh you know if I if you remember I told you I was you know I thought I was going on a I thought I was going to be a visual artist so when I was 16 my high school we took a trip a high school trip to Paris and that that just I I have so many memories of that and Emily really captures the magic I felt Paris and the other two are our jibbly films I love spirited away that's um it's just such a like just such a fun like I just love that story I I love the yeah like I just love every everything about spirited away is probably one of my favorite jibbly films and then the third one is another jibbly film uh Nossica Valley of the Wind and uh I think about this one quite a bit because if anyone asked me hey how did you kind of think about you know all these leadership trades I think what I watched that movie probably when I was eight or nine and the the hero Nossica and how she's seeing how she leads just left such a like um just left such a thumbprint in my heart I guess you could say that probably Nossica has inspired me to a lot in a lot of my different leadership principles wow what is that book all the end uh the movie's kind of like Nossica Valley of the Wind but it was actually based on uh Anna Manga Valley of the Wind so it's like high output management and he grew Valley of the Wind Nossica she taught management books so cool okay do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love could be not oh clothing could be a gadget could be kitchen equipment I'll I'll share the product that I'm reminded of how much is made a difference in my life recently uh because I've been just traveling a little bit and so I don't and I like to travel really light so I I use whatever shampoo and conditioner you know that the whole tail gives and I forgot that um so the the the product that I and actually have one of their hand I promise is it's not an infomercial sweet sister's body care it's you know a local business on on would be island but the reason why their product has made such a big difference in my life it's a full line of organic care body skin care but a few years ago I started getting this rash on my nose right here that was really painful like actually bleeding and I could not for the life of me figure out how to stop it like I tried not using any low shins like I cut everything on on my face and it was really hurting and then somebody says what's the shampoo you're using? I'm like it's the same shampoo I've used since I was you know like a teenager and they're like maybe your body has now um and it's you know like a generic you know for a shafu that they're getting more and they said maybe your body just start developing an allergy to it because of the chemicals uh in it that wow I'm like what and so anyways this was an organic shampoo that I found low and behold I use our shampoo and then because I you don't think that when you wash your hair it actually then you know like goes over to the to the rest of your body but so since then I've switched everything that I used to be sweet sisters but I'm recently reminded of how important this is because after a week of uh yeah hotel shampoo I actually started having some skin reactions again I'm like ah maybe I should get like travel style bottles that I could bring with me. This is an awesome pick and I love local local business picks even big bonus points for that uh and by the way this traveler doing just for folks that may not know this there's a there's a coated with cloth events that are happening all over the world I went to the one NSF there's what at London you're going to want to Tokyo is that the end of it or is there more of it after that uh Tokyo is so yeah that's next week and that's the last leg of the trip okay and then it's probably probably more in the future uh so cool I love that that's happening okay two more questions do a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to often in work or in life. Oh um so on work I really love to remind folks keep it simple like what is the the thing that you're really trying to do well and and focus on that do you know like keep it simple because I think sometimes we could overthink so it's always good mantra to think about that and in the life um you know probably in a world where you can be anything be kind. I love that one I we were at a an amount of story school uh tour and that's what the teacher had up on the wall. Oh like it's you know we have quite so many things going on that you never know what's going on and someone else's life and that one small act of of kindness can make the biggest difference like um yeah for for me actually that was when do you remember COVID we were all like working from home during you know okay with again um I it's just always really stuck struck with me because I was in these you know back to back meetings and I out and I always one-on-ones are really important to me because you know that actually that time is usually also really important for the other person it's something that you know they've been looking to there might have things they discuss so I always try like I always really prioritize one-on-ones uh but during that time my grandmother was doing while and she was in a home in Canada because of COVID I couldn't go visit and actually even my you know and to mom couldn't go visit and it was just very rare of if if they have a helper that can help we could do FaceTime but you never know what time that is going to be because you know there's so many people with a take care and also I got a message from my aunt going grandma can FaceTime at like 12 pm today I'm like oh no there's this one I want that I I've been mean to have and I I just message uh you know my report is I'm really really sorry it's the last minute is it okay to and I know it now it's when I say it doesn't seem like it's a big thing because it's like but to me it's always really important to keep but he was like yeah totally no problem and on for me that was just a small life that kind as he doesn't and he totally didn't make into big deal but that made the biggest difference to me that got to you know say hi to my grandmother and FaceTime. I love that okay uh final question uh so Boris turned he went asked him about you when he had this interesting you can say where he said in very important meetings you can often hear Fiona you could hear the click-clack if you want a knitting in the background maybe talk about just what's going on there and what's what are a couple things you knitted recently oh my gosh well I I knitted this talk oh you pick your own clothing I know this is very meta for a cloud code building itself you know we're always a clothing actually this is a whole fun thing I I think between knitting and programming because it's kind of like two stitches knit in a pearl so zero and one and anyway so many concepts of stacks and cues you actually could ripple like I'm kind of like a compiler I'm kind of like you know generating an executable when I knit um yeah actually it was like my grandmother taught me to knit when I was eight I kind of mentioned her and I um going to that yarn shop and so every time I I knit I think of her um but I I always like to multitask as you can see like yeah I can't go multiple agents so anytime I'm sitting and because um I practice enough and I'm going to have to I don't have to look at what I'm doing so it's almost almost like how you know sometimes people have like fidget spinners and such a knitting is just so anytime I'm sitting still I'm like oh this is time to you know like generate more knitting executable because I got so much yarn that if I don't do this yeah my yarn I might have a slight yarn addition I love this when I uh when I asked Boris what he would do when a jahits when we don't have to work uh he said he's gonna make me so I'm guessing your answer would be just knit and make you to perform oh my gosh my dream is to actually open up a yarn star in my grandmother's name and create that community and then homework would help out you automate everything that's right especially invoicing oh my god Fiona you're awesome it's just incredible to work that you and your team are doing just changing the world in such profound ways and there's no uh it's clear white it's growing so fast so good job to jump over there oh well I'm just so well I'm just really honestly lucky and humble that get to work with such an amazing team like I know how lucky and I am I am and I'm so grateful but thanks a lot for having me on the podcast as well this was a lot of fun two questions were can folks find you online if you are online if they want to pop anything and how can listeners be useful to you oh so definitely uh I'm on LinkedIn and I'm sure most people have shared this already but would love feedback of what's going well what's not going well I'm also any latent in that that you are all using that might be interesting use cases you know I had a friend message me recently to go oh I'm using cloud to help me generate a building plan for my shot and he actually showed me his hope his hope should which is cool so what would love to hear about that and then yeah maybe also you know we talked about reaching out across so there's someone whether a small business that you love or or someone that you feel like hasn't you know of us and you know the listeners are super AI-pelt uh yeah maybe take a time to hold somebody's hand to show what's um AI might be able to help him with such a good one that is such a good answer to this question especially coming from you Fiona this was awesome thank you so much for being here thanks so much for having me bye everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app also please consider giving us rating or leaving review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenniespodcast.com see you in the next episode