Intel CEO Lip-Bu Tan on Semiconductor Supply Chain and AI

Transcript

9 of the 10 company I invest, halfway they change their business plan, because market have changed. So I like to have entrepreneur as team, but just one person. I always believe in when I was a cadence and also at Intel, is first of all you crawl and then be humble, listen through customer and then first step for me is to strengthen my balance sheets, focus on the products and I really simplify the product, listen to customer and then drive the next generation leadership products and then right now the authentic AI and influence, CPU become highly de-demand and so in some way I'm happy why not the de-man is very high for my CPU, that can be very happy that Jensen Wang my old-time friend, he also put 5 billion in investing and support me, his 5 billion become 25 billion now, if you look at it, 10 years from now what will be the winning company, the one that Hi listeners, welcome back to no priors. Today a lot of night are here with Luputon, the legendary investor from Walden, then CEO of Cadence, NACIO of Intel. We talk about his plan to transform Intel, having the US government as a major shareholder, how to be an amazing semiconductor investor and whether or not we can make chips in the United States. Welcome, Lupu. Lupu is great to see you. We'll start with the obvious question, this is a really hard job to go BC of this incredibly important American semis company, why take the job at all? It's a good question. I'm 66 and people that are well, you should retire, rather than take on this hottest job in the industry and so a couple reasons, one is this iconic company and it's so important for the semiconductor ecosystem and also it's so important for the United States and so I decided, you know, do one more of the cadence. A lot has happened in this past year, what has been most surprising to you? Well, the most surprising that I don't learn for my previous job or even training is one day early morning, President Trump asking me to resign and the conflict of interest and there's no exceptions. And so I took conveying myself first of all, you know, I don't need this job. I do it purely to save Intel and so take that personal issue out of the way. Then I figure out how can I do to be helpful to Intel and so good news is I have a meeting in the Thursday morning and then Monday I have the meeting and then he'll listen to me like I have a chance to explain myself in our born in Malaysia, could not be in Singapore, went to MIT and I lived in the US and I lived outside country. And so something that I share and that somehow he listened very well and then he gave me the chance and so I'm delighted. And now you have the chance to do the work. When you said, you know, the job is to save Intel. It's a really important company. What is that look like to you? What is Intel winning or thriving? Look like. Yeah, I just passed 14 months. A lot of things happened in this 14 months. So a couple of things. One is the chain of culture and then clearly one to drive more accountability and also in terms of decision making had to be faster. I'm so used to start up culture and you move fast in the speed of light and don't have that bureaucracy layer of layer of meeting. And so something that I change the accountability, listen to the customer and the customer delighted in a somewhat liposho humble willing to listen and then address some of the problem that they face and then try to delight the customer and also the other part from day one I decided all the engineering report to me. I'm being an engineer by training. I want to know what ran wrong and what are the things that I need to correct listen to the customer and delight the customer and then make sure that we have the right product, simplify our product line and really have the roof map and the vision for the next five ten years. What is your vision of where Intel should be in ten years? Yeah, I think a couple of things. One I always believe in when I was a cadence and also a detail is first of all you crawl and then be humble, listen to customer and then secondly you're starting to walk and then finally you're starting to run in spring. So this kind of my culture of step-by-step doing it and then first step for me is to strengthen my balance sheets and the balance sheets really have a whole report in some way. So I'm delighted you know US government become a big shareholder. Just I explained to President Trump, TSMC when they started they have the dive power government as a shareholder. If you look at Japan you look at Singapore. This is an infrastructure US government get to provide the support. Secondly, very happy that Jensen Wang, my old-time friend, he also put five billion in investing and support me. And I'm glad at least to some good work is five billion become 25 billion now and more and then the other part is soft bank master. I used to be a soft bank board and then he landed hand to help me. So we strengthened the balance sheet and then the focus on the products and I really simplified the product listen to the customer and then drive the next generation leadership products. And then in some ways very lucky right now the authentic AI and inference CPU become highly in demand. And so you know versus one to eight in the training CPU to GPU. Now I can see one to four maybe one to one and I'm delighted that CPU become important. I talked to some of the AI model and the developer they said about in terms of reinforced learning in terms of the speed of orchestrating all the agents. And turn out the CPU is actually better. And so in some way I'm happy right now the demand is very high for my CPU. So I think overall build on the product on the data center server side. Then the other part is our foundry business. And initially this is a capital intensive business and it's not easy and you really need to have couple of things you need to have all the right IP so that you can support the customer like for example if it is a mobile related you got to have low power IP said that you need to have without that you cannot serve them. It's a service business, it's a trust business. People want to give you in order to have a way for it to come. If the yield not good they will be close in terms of revenue miss. So with that I think it's very important to really focus on the yield, the defect density, the cycle time. And I make sure that you really able to meet and serve the customer in high quality and reliable. And so those are the things that I really focus on it. And eventually you have to really move into a full stack. So not just a silicon you need to have a software and some of the customer asked me give me the whole rack. So there's a system that you have to build. And so I think those are the things that I quietly building a step by step and record some of the best talent I can find. By the way, all the recommend I do it myself, no search for me helping. And so I think sometimes it's good to have a road attack that you know who to reach out the core for. Yeah, I mean you've been in the business for so long and you know you've run a cadence for I think 12 years before this and so I think yes 13 like. Yeah. Yeah, I said it for more years as executive chair, man. So 15 years senior. I signed up for three months, three months. So we're not going to be very careful. The moment you said I just do it for three more years, it turned out to be 15 years. Yeah, well, it seems like I have a lot of longevity ahead of you here as well. And so the other big initiative that has been sort of talked about is turf, I've been working with Elon Musk and that. Can you tell us a bit more about how that can together in your involvement and how you're all collaborating. Yeah, good. I mean Elon Musk I think we all agree is on the best if not the best entrepreneurial in this century. Yeah, and I will share the same view that the semiconductor infrastructure actually is not catch up with the AI growth. And in terms of you need the capacity, you need to have the productivity and you have the dry efficiency. And so those are the things that he and I will share that that's something missing. And then secondly, he just delighted to work with him. And he's very I call it unconventional. And he basically question every step and why this traditional way of doing things. And in some ways, it's very refreshing. And I like that, you know, I like people have different opinion. And let's work together, find what is the best route. And we both can learn a lot together. And then I think clearly, he have a vision that his robots and his car, you know, he need a lot of silicon. Yeah, can you actually explain what characteristics are people are familiar with that? Yeah, 35 he decided he wanted to build his own fab. And I mean while we are delighted to work with him. And then make sure that we can work together and enable him to be faster and quicker to the production. And then using some of our technology and some of our processes. And there's something that we both kind of collaborate together. And he's a very good team that I work with quickly. And it's just refreshing to work with him. And he's talked about things like he wants you to be all the smoke and said the clean room and all these things that normally are good. Yeah, I think I don't go that far. Maybe some part of the clean room you can do that. But I think something that it's open my. And then we also listen and see what they can do that. Yeah, I mean it's very exciting to see how you're more than the business in the US in terms of incrementally building at the fundry business in terms of collaborating with things like turfab. If you think about the global AI and semiconductor supply chain. So say that you were to look at the changes that AI is driving on a macro basis country by country. And if I look at certain countries when I look at the layoffs that are claimed from AI, for example, most of them I think are overstated right now. You know, most of the layoffs are actually just overhiring during 2020 COVID period. But the first things I see actually being cut are as far as firms where you'd rather cut external head count versus internal. So you're cutting external customer support, you're cutting external IT. And that has more of an impact, I think, for certain countries, which have big BPOs, the Philippines, India, etc. And so they may be impacted in the short run by AI. And then if you ask how do companies participate in the future in a positive way in AI, you have to almost go country by country, right, places with cheap energy. We'll do data centers, places with the ability to train models, or train models, but probably only the US and one or two other places. How do you think about the shift in global supply chain for the semiconductor industry? Should certain countries invest more? Or should Israel be doing more given malonics and then video and Intel presence there? And should they try to do more in semiconductors? Should other, should the Philippines move back to more of a manufacturing base? How do you think about that on a global basis? Good question. So I think clearly the AI is changing the whole landscape. And I think the impact will be bigger than internet. And it's more profound also. So I think the AI initially is able to help you to do things more efficiently. And then with a lot of agent helping you to do things that is not kind of mundane that you need to do, but now they can give it to you faster. So in some way, I think you can drive a lot of efficiency. Even like semiconductor design, how much you can drive the efficiency in term of timing? How quickly can you come out and secondly the cost? And so I think those will be helping you to drive that. And then I think couple of bottlenecks for the AI, you know, demand and growth. One is of course everybody knows power constraint. Some countries, the power they just don't have that, you get impacted. And then secondly, a lot of people didn't realize the helium impact can be also face significant for semiconductor. And then the thirdly is everybody knows right now memory is a bigger shortage. And everybody tried to scramble for memory. And then even though you're on the build of fab to capacity increase, it will take couple of years to do that. And same thing for CPU, GPU, and all this will be highly demanded. And I think the also the pricing also go up because we're the past the price, the cost to the customer. So I think those will be the impact in the street growth. And then I think overall, I feel that the company that most impacted is you're not embracing AI. And because AI can help you to drive a lot of efficiency across all the different function of the enterprise. We should embrace and also find a way to better use AI for your prediction, for your design, for your, you know, all the different part of the workload. And I think that's tremendous. A number of people would say the simplistic argument against tariffab against Intel Foundry being competitive is really a question of, you know, there's all the factors internal of the building, right? You describe IP and velocity of just how you're doing business. Then there's external factors. And, you know, a lot's talking about a number of them. But one of them is the cost of labor. And actually the manufacturing capacity, you know, in investing in the Foundry business, you obviously believe there's a version where you can manufacture domestically. And Elon does too. Can you talk a little bit about that? And, you know, how real that constraint is, the labor constraint. Right. So, I think in that the, when I decided with us to double down on Foundry, or should I get out of the Foundry? Mm-hmm. And I kind of a lot of voices. I get voices in the marketplace as you can tell. It's very expensive. It's very expensive. Yeah, it's not going to work. But I finally decided this is very important for university and also very important for the industry. Mm-hmm. And I'll give you the idea that they're not this. We all live through this challenges of supply chain. And it's very important for any of the big companies in some macronautor. And really have to think about the supply chains. And you have to have a robust and resilient supply chain. You cannot just depend on one or two player in different geographic growth. And so, I think, you know, the more and more people can realize making a new United state is critical. And then the most advanced process, for example, we have the in the 14A is like 1.4 nanometer. And we're already starting to plan for 1 nanometer and 0.7 nanometer. It's getting smaller and smaller. So, in a way, it's much like our hair. So, then, so it's a lot of complexity. It's not that easy to do. And at this step, if you make a mistake that you just go down, go down the drain. So, in some way, you have to be really precise and in that manufacturing. So, in some way, this has become more and more going to be the bottleneck. So, we felt that we, you know, we have a lot of respect for TSMC. We're a great partner. And then, the more important, we both need to have more capacity to serve the customer. And then, so, I think we decided by the bullet longer term, I think it's critical. And then, that's where I can create more value for the industry. People have been talking for a long time about eventually hitting a point of resolution where you can't really ministerize things further. Like, the line width is just too small to be able to keep going. When do you think we actually hit that limit? Good question. So, I think I can see, you know, right now we have 18A and then going the production of 14A, I can see 10 and 7. And so, I think that path, I think we can get there, but it's going to be more and more expensive and more difficult to do. And that's why we need partners. We cannot just do it ourselves alone, partner with a subscript, vendor, partner with the crimson vendors. So, that makes sure that we can really drive those year and perform. And then, the other part also very become the bottleneck is packaging. The advanced packaging. And so, we all know about core work by TSMC. Now, we have a really good one called EMP. That is a really next generation. I had to make sure that you become able to do in the production year that need the customer requirement. And now, see more starting to run out of steam like you described. So, right now, I also look at some new materials. So, it become going back to the material size or the chemical table. So, goddamn nitrides, silicon carbide and indian phosphide. So, I invest in all three. And then, looking at some of this new material, how can we really drive that? And then, in the top of packaging, I started to invest into glass. Glass is a very good heat insulator. So, we invest in venture cycle 3DGS. Then, I realized that in-tale, we have like 1000 patterns on the module. So, how to, you know, subscribe and the module put it together. And that we just announced a big program with Indian government to manufacturing in India, plus in US, in New Mexico. So, I think this advanced packaging, very important. I also started to look at artificial diamond. And that's another very good and insulator. So, I also invest into, you know, diamond foundry. And that's something is the next generation to look at. So, new material, new subscript material, and new, you know, design methodology to drive that. So, one thing about being an engineer, you always hitting the wall, then you find a way to either jump over the wall or you walk around the wall and then to get to the better result. And that's what I have been long time as I invest in a building, semi-conductor, from the EDA2 to design, to manufacturing. It's kind of nice to have that experience. Now, I can help by a way to make a small contribution to the industry. Yeah, and I'm it's very exciting. And one of the reasons I'm asking about it as well is, to your point, there's always something that you can men around, but there are also physical limits where once you hit seven instruments or whatever the limitation is, you start to find new materials or find other work around. Yes. And then the interesting question is, and we've been talking about this for a long time. I remember 20 years ago, if you were talking about how we'd eventually hit a point where we ran out of space on this, is do you run into some sort of asymptote that actually normalizes performance across different boundaries? So, we're not. Yeah, good question. In top of like most law, you say, not double, you know, yeah, and then the power and the cost, and then you can double the performance, but you cannot double down on the cost and an area. So, those are the things you have to give, give way unless you find some new way of material, new way of the material. And then become material side, I started to hire more people in the material size. So, that is kind of innovation in our area, how can we do that? And I still remember 18 years ago, and I still investing in semiconductor. And actually, most of the VC firm, some of them are very nice tier one venture firm, a good friend of mine. And initially, the harness meeting, the whole harness in the room, then after I've talked about semiconductor, half-make excuse to run out of the room, then eventually the other half, they said, are valuable. Do you have any software service? So, then they've gone left with only two sympathetically listened to me. So, it's kind of the history have changed. And now, semiconductor, you will look at it. Chancellor is a 5.3 trillion market company, and then block home, and the TSMC is two trillion market care company, and Lisa's so my good friend at AMD is almost 800 billion, and I'm close to 600 billion. So, in some way, it's kind of semiconductor become hot again, and it become essential, because 15 years, 8, 20 years ago, when I invest in semiconductor, no VC want to join me, except me, you know, some of the big corporation, like Samsung, you know, um, and software and others, and investing with me. And then now, I starting to see a lot of VC like to come investing in semiconductor, I'm very happy. Mm-hmm. Given the enormous interest in investing in this area that you should be considered too hard, right? Yes. What do you think? I mean, you've been a venture investor with Walden for a very long time, as well as an operator. You know, the general fears, I'm just going to list a bunch of them. The general fears have been, it's very capital intensive, and you should tell me what I'm missing. It's very unpredictable in terms of, you know, shipping a design that works missing tape out, and you need to understand the workload very well. I think there's a, there's another, which is just like, it's, it's very high risk for the customer to switch, right? I think, you know, we've been involved in companies together, where, you know, there's a design win, and then there's still the question of like scaling water volume, um, uh, and then there's a cyclicality, right, of, you know, you build hard manufacturing capacity and demand may change or not in any, any given year. Um, what is your view on how a bunch of, you know, what makes it hard as an industry, and then the, the secular demand growth from a bunch of different areas, right? So you have the, recognition of how important the, a more diverse supply chain is, and then you have this, like, explosive demand growth on the AI side. How do you, you're still an investor, and then you're making the biggest bet ever, like, go BCEO. How do you, like, think about these different risks and advise others about where to invest in this supply chain? I realize that's a very large question, but just given your, your history with it, I think there's a, there's a, there's a lot of, like, yellow action of like, there's a memory shortage by memory stocks, um, as well as, you know, just doing, uh, unwillingness to take on things that have a 10 year timeline, like, material science. Good. You have quite a broad range of questions. Let me try to understand, explain that. So first of all, I think, uh, you know, the venture capital startup is in my block, and I really enjoy it. And so I think, uh, this is not tied to brag about it. And so there's some good exit. You know, I still have 159 IPO, 126, uh, you know, M&E, and that's include some micro inductor. Just bring down the semiconductor. I invest over the years, uh, 238% is in US. So what I usually look at some micro, just be clear. That's incredible. Right. Thank you. Thank you. It's just enjoy building it. And but more important, I will look at this first of all on the investment side. I always look at where is the bottleneck. What are you trying to solve? For example, I invest in company called, uh, credo semiconductor Australia lab, is this interconnect become the bottleneck. So I decided back, and also back, uh, slash your AI, you know, optical side. And then because speed become more important in the interconnect in the cluster. So I think optical become very important. Look at Johnson. He invested almost every company is photonic related. And then the other part of looking at is, you know, okay, what are the solution that need, like for example, we talk about design and then the complexity and also the course. Can you find some using AI machine learning to drive better design and better solution? So a couple of new startup actually going to the EDA related area to drive performing improvement. I think it's a good mind to do that. And then the other part you look at the new material. We talk about, you know, this, uh, in the end, fast-fight, that's why investment in fight. And then Marvel bought it. And then the then you invest into some of the new material that got them nitrite and silicon carbide. And then some of the company starting to be in a choir, include one of them in the doing power management. And EDA is a sport called Empower. And so again, this IBR, that's a very, very good area in power management become bottleneck. In terms of converting from 40 volt down to one volt. And then those in terms of that conversion, you lost a lot of power. And how you do try the power improvement. So I didn't power turmoil. Don't become the bottleneck. So I think I will always look at from what is a problem you try to solve. Is it real? It's customer crying for it. And again, I started to invest. The next thing is look at it's very important from day one. You'd have to target the first customer. And usually I like the customer. It's high school. They have the skill. If they like what you have, they're willing to pay millions of dollars next few years. And even giving some water is worth it because you have a big one customer. You can secure. So I always look at some of the formula. How do you do that? And then what do you get the talent? And then sometimes it's very important to find the talent. That's why I'm really interested in U.S. and then Silicon Valley. And then some Austin. And then the other part is Israel. A lot of talent. So I back quite a few quite a significant amount of my investment in Israel. And then because they have very disruptive innovative entrepreneur. They work really hard. Even in this wartime, they still have conference call. Exactly. It's okay. There's a warning. I had to go to underground. And then the internet may not be good. Maybe we just use voice. In some ways, it's kind of fun. They kind of resilient entrepreneurship, but really enjoy. So I think all in all, I felt that there's a lot of opportunity and experience AI. And right now, besides the genetic AI, now you're looking at physical AI. Next up, mix big frontier. And then you had to really look at a full stack. That's why I'm still involved with a lot of this frontier model that we brave familiar. And some of the investment I back because I really like open source frontier technology for physical AI. I think that's a goal. You mentioned the opportunity to make certain parts of the design and test of chips faster, cheaper, more creative with AI. Given your cadence experience, like, what do you think is most fertile? Is there anything you think is already working? Yeah, I think you're not for almost 15 years with cadence. And I'm so happy. One of my highlights is able to find my successor on the road. And I train him and he becomes super great CEO. And then he really embracing the AI, driving the genetic AI to drive more efficient. But there's good part. I think the nobses, Sashi and also try to do that. And they have an investment from, you know, Nvidia to billion. I think helping him to do a lot. And he acquire answers to moving to the whole system design. So I think all in all, they all do the best thing they can. But it also comes opportunity for startup to do some of the more disruptive. And then eventually, I go public or being acquired by both of them or Simon to acquire them. So I think there's opportunity for all depend on what the entrepreneurial vision. And then as long as I always have philosophy, the venture partner wants to sell the company. And it's a quick way for exit. You don't have a lockup. You don't have to worry about quarter to quarter earning. And then some entrepreneur, they from day one, they want to go IPO. You know, for being a VC, I think three of you, we three of us, we all VC, we support them to pronounce that dream. And I help them to fulfill that dream. Yeah. If you look at the different areas that you mentioned in terms of future, either product development or impact of the eye on the semiconductor industry, there's companies like periodic doing materials. There's two point folks working on the EDA side and design and other aspects and sort of throughout the chain as manufacturing. Do you think that either Intel or future semiconductor company, any tenure as soon now looks radically different from today? Given AI, and if so, how? Yeah, I think so. I think for some of all, back to Sarah, your question about capital intensive and a little bit unpredictable and cyclical. So you have to kind of put that into factor into your decision making investment. And I usually like to go in very early, put a team together. It's kind of fun to do that. I think you also do that. And secondly, you try to find the right investor that can cope partner with you. It's not just the forever, the brain and firm. I usually go for the individual. And then whoever the individual that really knowledge about in this space, you can, the most important to find a partner to difficult time and good time. A lot of the time people are very enjoyable working with you as a good time, where the company will trouble they just walk away. I like to have a partner that really worked through a lot of successful company. They have multi-partime almost bank loan that eventually take off. So I think it's important to find a partner willing to do that. And then the other parties look at the further the strategic investor that can help you either in manufacturing or memory connectivity or various way to add value to the company and also have couple of friends there in the growth stage and also in the hedge fund. And I really enjoyed them because they have a different perspective. They know about the public market. You can guide the company entrepreneur where not to go. And so those can be very helpful. So I think all you know I think is just fun to do that. And then just what relies is the engineering for startup is like problem solving. Each step of the way you have to find people to help you to solve the problem. And then if you trigger that, then great next frontier to work on. And then finally speaking, I look back. Nine of the 10 company are in vests. Halfway they change their business plan because market have changed. So I like to have entrepreneur a team, not just one person. Secondly, open my yard willing to listen and listen in not getting coaching for us. And then eventually they formulate their own plan. It's not just do what they want. It's more they figure out the best thing is you get them in nothing back. They draw their own conclusion that you exactly what you like and all different that you can embrace is a right decision. That's kind of fun of doing stuff. They can much faster. So back your question, if you look at it 10 years from now, what will be the winning company? This is just my personal view. The one that articulate and laser focus on one niche area and also find the right partner and also able to scale the company. And so in some way, I'm back to my point about full stack. So in the way you need to have a full stack solution. And so it can be a big company they live in a transform themselves to be looking at big platform. Like Jensen, I admire him. You know, he focus on CUDA, he focus on the lipo. I want to be a platform company. And he did it. And so in some way, you can do that. All startup companies like Entropy, OpenAI, they fire way to do it in a big more elegant way. They change the game. And then it started up move fast, you know, speed of light. You can really become a dominant player. And hopefully in Calc and Play the role because we have the XPU and we have the advanced packaging and we are foundry. If you put that all together, can build somewhat the purpose, build silicon for different workload. I think this way, I'm going. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess part of the question I was wondering is where you're going and the other part is does it fundamentally change how you work? Because when I look in the software world, I think there's a very big chef happening right now in terms of who you hire, in terms of who you think you want on board, in terms of people managing multiple agents. And so, you know, many people now that I know or hiring people more in their 30s, 40s, 50s because they're used to managing teams, yes, knitting the transfers directly over to managing agents. In terms of understanding the complexity of what to set up in the QA and everything out. And I wonder in the context of the physical world or in the context of a fab, how you think about shifts in terms of either a team structure or capabilities or how AI layers on. And so, as this was insure, if it's a natural slow evolution or if there's areas where there's a radical shift where it's like out from materials now, we should just use these 3A models plus some chemistry or whatever it is. So that's why it's a little bit curious about how you think about the future world. Good question. I think you know, as I back to that crawl, walk and run. So I think crawl, you basically try to I recruit some of the best talent in the semiconductor industry. And then now, as I think to look at what are the software talent I need to bring on board. And in order to build a full stack. And now as I think to look at, you know, my average of my team in the 40, 40, 50, I need to bring in some new talent. And then so, they're understanding the workload, understanding the frontier model, open source. And that is important. So, for now, my son become my teacher now. So, every time he invited me to go to his house, we're playing the grandkids. I started to tap on him on all the AI machine learning. He's more plucking than me. So, I learned a lot and then tried to understand investing and then bring some of the talent to come in. So, we are changing Intel. You should be a very old legacy spreadsheet company. Now, I'm transforming it to become AI 9 and not AI enabled using some of our design. And also across all the other organization embracing AI. And then so, they become less, less depend on the spreadsheet and label to do that. And you're going to combine the two talent plus the best AI tool that I can use. Not only for my organization, not only for my sales. And then now, I'm starting to look at not just marketing and now the design and then to embrace them. I think a lot of investors, you know, at least for me the last few years since I started to firm, it's been very educational thinking about the different capital sources for more capital and tons of companies. I did a lot of software before. And so, you need to have smart friends with a very different stance in balance sheet. It was less if you're like, I need $150 million before this thing gets to, you know, some critical math. And so, you've lived that for a very long time. And then you have the unique experience of working with the government as a large stakeholder. How do you think this sort of industrial policy? It's led to huge successes like TSMC, right? The most important company in the world. It's also been a bit frowned upon in American business culture for a long time. Like, how do you think that should change now or where is it relevant? It's a good question. So, I think in our clearly, you know, for capital, intensive business and infrastructure play, you need to access to the capital. And in some way, I think for our early-day venture capital investment, you know, now starting become very capital intensive. Yes. And some of the venture firm willing to put one billion into some company, is very unheard of in the VC business. Now it's happening. And so, in some way, you just have to be, you know, I like this kind of bell curve either you're going very early. And because it's something to do the series A is over one billion valuations. And so, you had to go in pre money, pre-seed to go into that kind of a 2030 billion valuation. It's very rare right now. Yeah. So, you just have to do that, pick the right one. And then the other part is able to find capital to scale. And that's why some of this mutual fund they also like to move into the pre-market early states to join, join me to investing. I delight them because they are very less sensitive or whether they had to own 20% of the company. There's not too many 20% to give. So, you have to find the right investor to come in. And then in terms of the capital intensive, like AI in a factory and also the foundry. And then you really need to tap either government funding or some sovereign fund. And also some very big capital, you know, there's some big fund they're doing that. And they're really, the fund they've organized is basically support the infrastructure. And we like to tap into some of them and then to make sure that they can scale our operation. So, I think in overall government sovereign fund, I've become very important. And also as a public company, I also purposefully want to focus on some of the investor. There are more long-term growth oriented. And so, that they can help me to grow the business. And then rather than short-term asking capital location, you know, why do you going to buy back your shares? Those are good questions, but meanwhile, I also have to build the business. And so, I think it's kind of that balance is important. Do you think there is something that investors like most misunderstand about Intel at this moment? Quite a few things. First of all, I think, you know, as a back to this crawl run and work, last four months, I crawl. And then, but the people starting to recognize that potential of it. And so, the other part is very important. We need to really get the best product out. Either PC client, we still have a buck market share, but we really need to really build more performance. So, that's why I'm quietly building up the CPU architect, GPU architect, and software architect. So, that we can leapfrog, just like, I look at Intel want to be a multiple of startup culture. So, that we move fast and we can leapfrog using better technology. And then the other part is beside the product. There are some new energy coming in, like, a genetic AI, the physical AI. There's a lot of areas that we can invest market is huge. That's on the product side. And the founders side were very distant from TSMC and then in terms of their performance. So, that's why we have to be humble, looking at building the building block that I mentioned earlier, the IP, the yield, the defect density, and the cycle time to make it more efficient and more reliable is a trust business people want to trust you before they give you the way further to count on you. So, those are the things we take longer time. But I think by 2030, 2022, I think I was starting to surface up. People may not understand how big potential I can be in terms of product, not a PC client, that's our bright and butter. And we move up to the edge and move into the physical AI and a genetic AI. And because not right now, in the past, you basically provide the server, provide the PC for human. Now, it's starting to have another different dimension. It's millions of agents, they need to contact the compute, they access into the software stack. So, I think that part, I think we have a chance to really play. The game is not over yet. We can play on the injected AI and also the physical AI. So, that's kind of where I'm going. And the AI is just a beginning. You know, you have the training, the chance and own, the edge and also in terms of a genetic AI with agents. And also physical AI, I think is the jumbo. Everybody have a chance. So, I think that's part that I want to go for it. And so, I think hopefully, the investor will know, even though in 40 months, we make six times return to the shareholder, they just a beginning. We still have a lot of room to go. There's venture returns from here. Yeah, so, you know, I always look for 10X. You know, being a venture, it's hard. You want to look for 10X. And at cadence, when I step down as a CEO, I think we make about close to 76 times. You know, starting from an interim CEO, $2.42, and then when I retire, as a utility chairman, about 85 time return to the shareholder. So, it hard to do that, I didn't tell because of basis bigger. So, I kind of say, okay, let's do it at 10X. You know, and then, and five years, 10 years, you can do 10X. I think it's a good return of being a venture capital at hard. That's kind of my goal. So, there's a, got speed on this very, very large mission from this, from this huge base already. There's an embedded belief in what you described about where the workload is, right, where I think some would say like, we're just going to build bigger and bigger data centers. And a gigawatt is the beginning. But the centralization and the efficiency from running, even the inference compute, and a centralized way, is the, is the dominant way versus thinking about the edge, thinking about the client. Do you think that there's like an equilibrium state that you believe in of where the compute is or is it just, we will find out from the workload. How do you think about that? Yeah, I think that's a very good question. You know, right now, there's a massive build-up in terms of the AI. You know, the, I think it's a writing to do. I don't see that in anything to slow it down because the workload is increasing a lot. And then, I think the question mark is, how we are supply constraint. Well, supply constraint. Yeah. So, I think anything slow down is the supply constraint. But I think the other part is, I always look at all this infrastructure build-up. At the end, you have to look at what is the solution, what is the application you want to drive. And I'm more focused on application. So, if you can identify the application that is humongous or add up a few application to become meaningful and you focus on that, it's not everybody built going to be winning. And so, some going to be winning big time and some going to lose over time or something go sideways. So, you know, just like internet, you can see some of them turn out to be very big like Amazon, like Netflix. And then, some of them is kind of go sideways and disappear or being acquired. And so, I think to me, it's the same approach. Then, the really focus on what application they try to serve and that application, how big is that. And whether it's sustainable or not, or it's very crowded. So, if it's too crowded, you know, maybe one or two may survive. The other may be just consolidate. So, I think this industry go through that big growth. And then, starting to consolidate and be eventually one or two become the real winner. So, I think that's kind of with what's the movie before. So, it's not surprised to me, but focus on application like Netflix is application. You know, Amazon is a real application. That to me, they're winning. But you're assuming that some of these applications, they will be better served by client or edge compute than only by the day. Only in terms. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I will say as a I'm an investor in a number of companies that, you know, they're doing robotics, they're doing defense. And so, the compute on the device is a very important choice in terms of R. And what we assume around it, let's say for robot in the home, eventually, what we assume is in the home and in connectivity around it, determines what you're able to do. And I think that that's been kind of forgotten for a little bit in the, in the sassar. Yes. Yes. So, I think I have more. My investment thesis is buying a problem that is really neat to solve. And secondly, who will be the player that you can partner with? And then, thirdly, look at the application. How big is the application? Is that sustainable? And if it's really big, you believe in it, double trip or death? Here. But you're including betting on applications that have not yet been broadly deployed. Okay. It's amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks, Lipper. Thank you. Every week. And sign up for emails or find transcripts for every episode at no-prior.com.